Shining the light on activism

Announcer (00:07):All Inclusive, a podcast on inclusion, innovation, and social justice, with Jay Ruderman.Jay Ruderman (00:17):Hi, I'm Jay Ruderman and this is All Inclusive, a podcast focused on inclusion, innovation, and social justice. On December 14th, 2012, America was shocked by a mass shooting that targeted young children. The notorious Sandy Hook shooting shook the very foundations of our nation's society with the deaths of 20 children and 6 staff members of the school. With me today is Nicole Hockley, whose six-year-old child Dylan, was murdered in the horrific tragedy because of her horrific experience, Nicole co-founded the Sandy Hook Promise, a nonprofit organization that strives to make the Sandy Hook shooting, the last one. Nicole, welcome to All Inclusive.Nicole Hockley (01:03):Thank you so much for having me, Jay.Jay Ruderman (01:06):So, Nicole, I know this must be so difficult for you, and I can't even imagine what you went through, but can you tell us about the day of the shooting, when you first heard what had happened?Nicole Hockley (01:19):Sure, and thanks for asking. It was a Friday morning in December and the morning was pretty uneventful and normal. I woke up my two boys, Dylan was six at the time and in first grade and Jake was eight and in third grade at the time. And as usual, we walked up the driveway and waited for the bus to arrive. Dylan was autistic and at the top of the driveway, we'd always play with the neighbors' kids. He didn't know how to play necessarily, but they used to play tag and he would always like shout out, "Who's the tagger, who's the tagger?" And there was a weird moment before he got on the bus, which has stuck in my mind. There are a lot of things, obviously, that stick in my mind, from that day.Nicole Hockley (02:15):But we had a little routine because like a lot of little boys, Dylan had a love, dislike relationship with school and we used to count down the days. And so as we would walk up the driveway, Monday was five days school, two days, no school, Tuesday was four days school, two days, no school. And this helped him understand days of the week and heading to the weekend. So Friday would normally be one day school, two days, no school. And as he was preparing to get on the bus, he looked at me and he said, "Last day school, mommy." And I said, "That's right, D, one day school, two days no school." And he just kind of nodded at me and said, "Last day school, mommy." And then he on the bus. That was the last time I ever saw him alive.Nicole Hockley (03:05):I was at an exercise class when a call came through from a friend, letting me know that there was a shooting at the school where we both had our children. I collapsed to the floor in my class. And one of my other friends collected me and took me in her car to drive to Sandy Hook, which is only a few miles away from where I was. And as you got closer, there were just cars and police cars and sirens, and the streets were jammed. So I got out of the car and started running to where the school was.Nicole Hockley (03:51):There were just so many people in there. This is a school with several hundred children and it was complete chaos. And there's a fire station at the front driveway to the school and they were sending everyone there. And the rooms were crowded with children, all sitting down on floors everywhere, in the back offices of the fire station. And parents were just pressed right up against each other, trying to wiggle their way through to find their kids. And I remember seeing a few of my friends looking for their children. One of my friends said, "I saw Jake, my eldest he's in another room." And I said, "That's good. Have you seen Dylan?" "No."Nicole Hockley (04:37):And another woman who I recognized from the town said, "What class is he in?" And I said, "He's in Ms. Soto's class." And she said, "I heard she got shot." And that was the first time that I'd really heard that this was a potential. And I got angry and I yelled at her and I said, "Don't, you dare say that if you don't know it's true." I just kept pressing my way through and I found a lot of other first-graders, all sitting with their legs crossed, quietly. And I was just searching all the faces, looking for D and then a policeman, I think, stood on a chair between an archway and said, "We need to get the kids all to the front so we can start allowing parents to take kids home, make some space."Nicole Hockley (05:23):At this time, I found Jake and he just threw his arms around me, which was amazing because I knew he was safe. And he said, "Where's Dylan?" And I said, "I don't know, but I'm going to find him." And then they made all the parents stop and it became silent. And they asked all the kids and the teachers to get the kids up to the front where the bays of the firetrucks were, so that they could line up by class. And all the kids were walking by holding hands, some were crying. You just keep looking at every face, looking for your child. And he wasn't there. And I went out front, once all the kids were there and found an adult holding Ms. Soto's sign and there were only a few kids there.Nicole Hockley (06:15):I saw Dylan's reading partner and she just had this blank look on her face. And I went up to the adult and I said, "Where's the rest of the class?" And he said, "I don't know anything. I've just been asked to stand here with this sign." And parents started collecting their kids and leaving. And my friend said, "Do you want me to take Jake home?" And I said, "Yes, please." I said, "I'm sure Dylan's fine. I'm sure he's hiding somewhere and I know Mrs. Murphy, his Special Education assistant, wherever he is, she is too. She would not leave him at all." They were very strongly bonded. And eventually, it was only some families milling around and they asked us to all go in the back room, and even then, my mind, could not comprehend in the slightest, that there was potentially any harm done to my child.Nicole Hockley (07:22):And I started to just shut down and no one knew what was going on. We had to fill in a form that said the name of who we were waiting for and what class they were in. Some people were crying, some people couldn't stop talking, they were on their phones. I did not want to go on my phone, I just reached out to my husband and I said, "You need to get here because I'm all alone and I don't know what's going on." And then, they let us know that a lot of people had been killed, again, no more details. And then our governor at the time, Governor Malloy, came in with what I now know, were Senators, but I didn't recognize them at the time. And I didn't even know who our governor was, I'd only been living in Newtown for 11 months, having recently relocated from England, where I'd been living for 18 years.Nicole Hockley (08:20):And our governor started talking and realized that everyone in the room had not been told anything. And he was the one who took it on himself to be brave enough to say, "If we were still waiting in that room, then the person we were waiting for was not coming back." Yelling, crying, screaming, just complete pain and I just shut down because that's what I do. And shortly after that my husband arrived, we were assigned a police officer to take us home. Ironically, my street and house was also shut off because the killer lived across the street from me, which we didn't even know at that point, I didn't know why our street was closed off. And we went directly to where Jake was, with our neighbors from a few doors down. And I was not able to talk at this point and so my husband had to tell Jake that Dylan had been killed. And I have never heard a child sound like that, he was howling like an animal. And we just went upstairs to the bedroom and pretty much stayed there the entire weekend.Jay Ruderman (10:09):I can't even imagine. And my heart goes out to you and your family and I can still hear, all the years after, how devastated this was for you. I mean, I remember clearly Sandy Hook from a national perspective, it made news all over the world. And there was an outrage at the number of children especially, that were killed in this mass shooting. How did the community come together after this?Nicole Hockley (10:45):At the start, the community came together very strongly and I didn't totally recognize all of that at first because I was just very much focused on my family. But the outpouring of support from Newtown, from around the world was amazing. And we had, there were vigils and President Obama came and spent time with each of us and there were lots of immediate charities formed. People didn't know where to send things.Nicole Hockley (11:27):There was a warehouse that was literally, filled with gifts. I mean, everything from paintings of the 26, of paintings of individual children, mountains of teddy bears, some really bizarre things, as well. But it was a time of united grief. And for some people, then they need to go back to their lives, and for others, divisions start because I think after every tragedy I've seen since then, now that I'm so much more attuned to it, there's always a coming together and then people want to do different things to try to prevent it and it creates issues and tensions. But for my community, some people had already come together.Jay Ruderman (12:35):So I want to talk about Sandy Hook Promise and what the organization is focused on doing? But before I get to that, something like this has ramifications that will go on for a lifetime, for those that we're touched. And I know that there are people in the community who were affected, who have since died by suicide. So, something like this just has ramifications and unfortunately, as we're going to talk about a little bit later, these mass shootings are something that are quite a common occurrence in the United States. But tell us a little bit about Sandy Hook Promise and what the organization does?Nicole Hockley (13:22):Well, we are focused very much outside of Newtown. There is a lot of ongoing trauma and grief and issues as a result of what happened at Sandy Hook School, that will affect this entire generation. And I continue to keep an eye out for warning signs in my own son, who's now 16 and still remembers that day and what he heard and saw. But for Sandy Hook Promise, our mission is to ensure that this tragedy doesn't continue to happen in the future. We envision a future where no child ever has to experience the devastation of a school shooting. And we do that by teaching people, how to recognize the signs.Nicole Hockley (14:11):In all of the research, when determining the strategy, it became very clear, that to create behavioral change, there's a lot of leavers that you can pull, education and programs, grassroots, voice, legal action, policy action, political action. And the gun violence prevention movement had only ever focused really on policy and then, soon after politics, but no one was really teaching how to prevent it. And while Sandy Hook Promise is still very much legislate, sorry, advocates for legislation in the area of mental health awareness and funding and gun violence prevention and safe access, we're well aware that you can't legislate for behavior. You need to create a behavioral change first and then have legislation to enforce it or reinforce it.Nicole Hockley (15:08):So we're very much focused on, from all the school shootings that we have studied, from the meetings with the FBI, from meeting with mental health experts, social movement experts, academic experts, gun owners, and non-gun owners, we decided we need to teach kids how to lead this change by teaching them, how do you recognize signs of someone who's in crisis, whether that is from self-harm, harm towards others or anywhere on that spectrum of violence? From bullying to something that could eventually escalate into self-harm, eating disorders, dating violence, domestic abuse, into homicide, and suicide.Nicole Hockley (15:52):How do you recognize those signs and then intervene to get that person help? Speaking to a trusted adult, using an anonymous reporting system, fostering inclusivity, and connection, so that something doesn't escalate and that's where our programs are. How do we teach kids to recognize these signs, because there are always signs. 4 out of 5 school shooters tell someone before they commit an act of violence, 7 out of 10 people who die by suicide, exhibit signs, and signals. So these are all opportunities for intervention and that's what we're teaching.Jay Ruderman (16:26):So, I mean, I find it to be extremely powerful and we'll talk a little bit about guns, that guns are the problem and we have to legislate to, let's look at people who are in trouble that could become mass shooters. I've never encountered that before, but I think that that's a very powerful way of looking at that. And in a way, very spiritual to open yourself up and to say, "Listen, I'm going to go to an area that's probably really uncomfortable for me and deal with people that could have been in the same place as the person that killed my son." And work in that area. But let's draw back a little bit and talk about gun violence in America. Why do these shootings happen regularly in the United States, not just someone taking their own life, but going and trying to kill as many people as they can, and it doesn't happen as much in other parts of the world?Nicole Hockley (17:36):Yeah. And I've heard so many ideas and hypotheses as to why that is, is it violent video games? Is it a mental health issue? When you get right down to it, it's about access to weapons because violent video games are not just in the United States. People that have issues with mental wellness or coping issues, that is not the sole purview of the United States, as well. What is different, is access to weaponry. And that comes down to our Second Amendment and the way it's been translated to mean, that anyone can have any gun they want, at any time.Nicole Hockley (18:26):And it's become such a political discussion, so partisan, and so based in fear, that it's really hard sometimes to break through, to have logical conversations. And it's not about taking something away. It's not about being pro-gun or anti-gun, it's about protecting kids and that's something we can all agree on. So if we start from that basis and figure things out, but the problem in America is, there's 330 million people and more guns than that.Jay Ruderman (19:02):Right.Nicole Hockley (19:03):And the fear messaging that comes out from more of the pro-gun lobby is, "You need to be armed to the hilt in order to defend yourself." Whereas actually, mass shootings are incredibly small in number, suicides are what drive gun violence deaths. And that is all about access and poor storage and lack of safety.Jay Ruderman (19:32):I read an article that you authored with Laura Dern, the actress, which said, "In 2020, 23 million guns were sold." Which was a huge jump from previous years and that in this year alone, I mean, we're not even halfway through the year, but there's been 47 mass shootings so far, in the United States and over 200 children have died, as a result. This is a national disgrace and I mean, without getting too political, why are states and our federal government, why are they not able to do more to prevent this?Nicole Hockley (20:21):Sadly, they are very able to do more to prevent this, the problem is politics. It's become a political issue rather than a public safety issue. If it was treated as public safety, I mean, with over 40,000 people dying by gun violence every year, and there are solutions in place, it's a shame that we're not able to put our politics aside and just think as people. There's a lot of work that we can do at a grassroots level, as well. I don't think it's just the job of politicians, it's around how we look out for each other. It's around how we respect and include each other. It's also around being able to speak up, where in the past, we've been a bit of a bystander culture. I will video what's happening, but I won't intervene. It's someone else's responsibility to do that, rather than being upstanders and leaning in and saying, "This person needs help, and I'm going to do something about it." So there is a behavioral change that's needed for all of us, in addition to then, having our politicians be upstanders, as well.Jay Ruderman (21:42):Do you think that we've, as a society in America, become in some ways, immune to these shootings happening and just say, "Okay, well, this is just part of life, living in America." I mean, will they ever stop? Or do you think that we're just going to wake up every week or every other week, and just hear about something like this happening?Nicole Hockley (22:04):I absolutely believe it's going to stop and that's my life's mission, so I will always believe that. I think there is an element of desensitization, but it's more coming from a sense of apathy or a sense of, "It'll never happen to me." We find, unfortunately, that most people only become active in this issue, once it has touched them. And with 40,000 people dying every year, mass shootings on the increase, there is soon going to be a point in time, when it is hard to find someone who hasn't been touched by gun violence. And I think that will be a big turning point, but I'd rather us not have to wait till we get there and take action now, instead.Jay Ruderman (22:50):Right. I want to talk about the shooter and I know this is sensitive. The killer, Adam Lanza, what do we know about him and how he got to that point of doing something so terrible and outrageous?Nicole Hockley (23:16):Well, having certainly read the police report several times and having met with the Behavioral Analysis Unit, who did some profiling on him, I think the main thing is, this was a troubled person who had a lot of issues, observable issues throughout his life and they were not intervened on. He was prescribed medicine, he didn't take the medicine. He was prescribed therapies, they were ended. His mother was an enabler, as far as my opinion is, in terms of allowing his behavior to go unchecked and unsupported with help, that could have stopped him from escalating.Nicole Hockley (24:12):We don't know the exact triggering moment, but some of these signs were evident, even in his elementary school years, with drawings about killing, stories that he wrote. Which a teacher did bring to light, but nothing happened about it. He was incredibly isolated. He isolated himself in his own house, put blankets up, duct-taped up over all the windows, had very little interaction with his own mother. This was someone who had no connection, potentially, had an untreated illness, as well, and had other drivers that made him want to go for infamy and the easy kill of an elementary school. And he had completely unfettered access to weapons. There were lots of guns in the house. They were not kept in a locked safe, many were found in his own bedroom closet.Jay Ruderman (25:27):I had a friend in high school who died by suicide, by a gun, and the family had a lot of guns in the house. And I mean, I think I've seen your writings. Guns are extremely, extremely dangerous items and they're all over the place. And the access to them that children may have, is just a lethal combination. But you talked about, what qualities he had or what was going through in his life. Are there commonalities between other mass shooters? Are they showing some of the same traits that we should be looking out for?Nicole Hockley (26:13):Yeah, it is around these signs. These are usually escalating acts of self-harm or violence that go unchecked and unintervened on and it just continues to grow. So that's why I'm so focused on upstream violence prevention, how early in the cycle can we create interventions and stop the next escalation from happening? Because it is a spectrum of violence, no one snaps overnight and becomes a mass shooter. There's no such thing as that, this is something that grows. And while one sign isn't necessarily enough, it's about the accumulation of signs and the increased amount of them over time, that really are a signal that someone is in deep trouble of self-harm or violence to others and needs an intervention. And that's where the focus needs to be, early intervention, early support, and obviously, lack of access to means, to carry out any act of self-harm or violence to others.Jay Ruderman (27:20):So, Nicole, you mentioned one thing in a previous answer, and I just wanted to see what you meant by that? People who are looking for infamy, what did you mean by that?Nicole Hockley (27:32):According to the police reports, he had been studying previous mass shootings, such as Columbine, in-depth, and wanted to get a higher kill rate. He wanted to be remembered as having killed the most people.Jay Ruderman (27:47):I think for most of us, it's a really difficult thing to wrap our heads around. I mean, I know it happens all the time, we can list many, many famous mass shootings, where a lot of people have been killed, including children. It's just so difficult to wrap your head around. I mean, death by suicide happens, it's frequent, we should work against it and raise stigma and educate people. But the mass shooting aspect of it is really hard for a lot of people to wrap their heads around. But yet, it seems to be a thing out there, that other people are following previous cases.Nicole Hockley (28:31):Very much so. That is a very obvious and more overt sign of someone who is potentially planning damage to others, this obsession with previous mass shootings, studying them, detailing, emulating them. That is not typical behavior for many people. That's a sign of someone who is having dark thoughts and needs help. And the idea is competing with mass shootings and unfortunately, we've seen it again. There have been shootings since then, that the person has talked about wanting to do a Sandy Hook, or get a higher kill ratio than Sandy Hook. I can't go there after the act is done, but if there's something that can be done to prevent that person from fulfilling that, which is often, also a cry for help. As in the case with the Sandy Hook shooter, this was suicide by mass shooting. There was no intention that our shooter had, of coming out of that school alive and that happens a lot in school shootings, as well.Jay Ruderman (29:46):So I have four teenagers. And as a parent, obviously, I'm concerned about them, about their mental health, about how they're growing up. What are you telling parents? What are we looking for? The telltale signs that we need to see? Like, "Oh, this is not right. This goes beyond, something that someone needs to be counseled on." But it's a little bit more?Nicole Hockley (30:15):This is about significant shifts and it can be hard for a parent when your child's in front of every day, and what's a typical teenager, what's teenage drama and hormones, and what is something beyond that? So, I always tell parents, "Please trust your gut. If he thinks something's wrong, ask, get an intervention, get support, have good communications with your kids, and be part of their lives." But signs to look for include, had they stopped being interested in things that always used to be a passion to them? Have they drawn away? Are they unable to manage their anger or cope with something that would seem to be a small problem and they're overacting to everything? Are they having significant changes of behavior, of dress, of giving away items, of studying mass shooters, or studying firearms and how to acquire it?Nicole Hockley (31:10):Are they bragging about violence? Are they performing acts of self-harm or harm towards animals? Sometimes these are things that also build up. Are they just incredibly different from the child that you've known them to be? And if this is seen in your family and as seen in school, as well, and especially, because teachers spend a lot of time with our kids. So we need to also trust what the teachers are seeing in the classroom and not deny, when the school comes to you and says, "We're concerned about your child for these reasons." Your heart wants to envelop your child and protect them, but you need to open up your heart to thinking, "The best way to protect them is to listen to what their problems are and figure out ways to support them."Jay Ruderman (31:56):Maybe, Nicole, we can talk a little bit about some of the educational programs that Sandy Hook Promise runs and you can talk about them and the impact that they've had?Nicole Hockley (32:08):We have two pillar programs, Start with Hello, which teaches kids, how to recognize when someone's alone and reach out and include them, create connections. It's all about fostering connectivity and safer school climates. It's an SEL program that is used in thousands of schools across the country, right now. In total, our programs are in about 15,000 schools, in all 50 states. We've trained, I think about 12 million people who have participated in our programs, as of this point. Our other pillar program is, Say Something, where we specifically, focus on teaching kids, how do you recognize signs and signals in your friends? Particularly on social media, where so much communication is done and how to then, tell a trusted adult or use a different system, if your school has an anonymous reporting system.Nicole Hockley (33:03):We then launched our own anonymous reporting system in 2018, so that, without expecting kids to create the interventions, we're saying, "Go to an adult, a trusted adult, or an expert." And let them say, "This is what I'm seeing. This is what I'm nervous about, and this person needs your help." And then allow the adults or the experts to do the intervention. Those two programs in themselves, have reduced bullying and reduced isolation in things like lunchrooms, they have gotten thousands of kids to mental health supports that are needed. They have tangibly stopped a considerable, sad number of suicide attempts, and they have stopped several dozen evidenced school shooting plans, that we believe would have taken place, had we not intervened.Jay Ruderman (33:59):Can you talk a little bit about the program, Students Against Violence Everywhere? And is there any connection between that and the survivors of the Parkland shooting in Florida?Nicole Hockley (34:12):So, Students Against Violence Everywhere or SAVE, is our student youth empowerment, they're student clubs. So a lot of times, where schools have our programs, we want to ensure that this becomes the fabric of the school. It's not just a one-and-done training, it's about how do you sustain it? And it's about having young people get involved, in being agents for themselves, as to the safety of their own school and community. So we have about three and a half thousand student clubs now, across the country and we do summits and leadership things. We started this in 2017, so before Parkland.Nicole Hockley (34:53):And there are SAVE clubs down in Broward District, which is one of the districts that we work with. Ironically, and sadly, we were just about to implement the programs in Broward District when Parkland happened, which I know my team took, we took every school shooting very personally and very hard. But the fact that we were about to train on that, and then this happened, that hurt our team, emotionally, quite a lot. We have, in terms of what came out of that with March For Our Lives and Safe and Sound Schools, there's a lot of behind-the-scenes work, we all talk to each other. But we're focused on different ways to tackle this problem.Jay Ruderman (35:43):Finally, I just wanted to ask you, in many things I've read, you referred to Dylan as my butterfly?Nicole Hockley (35:53):Yeah.Jay Ruderman (35:54):Can you talk a little bit about that?Nicole Hockley (35:54):Yeah. So, Dylan was autistic and he had limited verbal skills. I was very fortunate that he was good with touch and a huge cuddler. He used to hold onto me like a koala bear, half the time, and just a very happy boy. He also, like a lot of kids on the spectrum, had repetitive movements, he was a flapper. So whenever he got excited, he would jump up and down and flap his arms. We used to joke that he was just going to take off and fly away one day. But I think he was four or five, when I asked him, "Why do you flap?" And I really wasn't expecting him to answer because of his verbal skills, but he looked at me and he said, "Because I'm a beautiful butterfly."Nicole Hockley (36:45):And at his funeral, which was a week after the shooting, and my husband and I were addressing the people there, I started to talk about the butterfly effect. And this theory that a butterfly flapping its wings on one side of the world can create change on the other side of the world. And I said that, "Dylan, and all those that we lost that day, were butterflies and their energy was going to create change." So Dylan is our butterfly and he is that force for change. And now, when I have the honor to go out to schools around the country, and this is no word of a lie. When I'm addressing assemblies with several hundred kids, I see all their shining faces and then I see those light bulbs go off over their heads, as we're talking to them and they know that they can make a difference. And then, all I see are butterflies because it's the kids that are going to make this change happen.Jay Ruderman (37:59):So, if someone wants to get involved, can they contribute, are there other ways that they can get involved in the Sandy Hook Promise?Nicole Hockley (38:08):Yeah, there's tons of ways to be involved in Sandy Hook Promise. We have a website, sandyhookpromise.org. You can get involved by donating, of course, to enable us to do this work and reach more kids. You can become a Promise Leader, which we have, I think about 8,000 of them across the country, right now, which are our volunteer ambassadors, helping bring the programs to schools and advocate for sensible gun legislative changes. You can get involved in your school's Safe Promise Club. You can also download our brochures, download the signs and learn what those signs are, if someone's in crisis, so that you're teaching them in your own family, to your own children, and to the community around you.Jay Ruderman (38:50):Nicole, thank you so much for joining us today. I know this was not easy, extremely emotional. Your work is just vital for the future of this country and I really appreciate the time you spent with us.Nicole Hockley (39:04):Thank you so much, Jay. It was an honor speaking with you.Jay Ruderman (39:07):Thank you.

Amy Spitalnick (00:00):Robbie called me up one day, and said, "I have an idea for you. Would you be interested in helping us sue Nazis?"Roberta Kaplan (00:06):Every couple decades or so, there's a trial that happens, that tends to be much more than the parties in the case.Speaker 3 (00:17):All Inclusive, a podcast on inclusion, innovation, and social justice with Jay Ruderman.Jay Ruderman (00:27):Hi, I'm Jay Ruderman, and this is All Inclusive, a podcast focused on inclusion, innovation, and social justice. In August of 2017, in Charlottesville, Virginia, the Unite the Right rally took place, bringing together large groups of white supremacists, from neo-Nazis to Klansmen. The rally began as a protest against the proposed removal of a confederate general statue, but escalated to violent riots. A group called Integrity First for America is leading the charge in a groundbreaking lawsuit that seeks to hold accountable the white supremacists who orchestrated that weekend of violence.Jay Ruderman (01:12):Integrity First for America is a nonprofit organization dedicated to holding those accountable who threaten longstanding principles in our democracy, including the country's commitment to civil rights and equal justice. Today with me is Amy Spitalnick, the executive director of Integrity First for America, and famed attorney Roberta Kaplan, who is the lead attorney for the plaintiffs in the trial. She's best known for winning the Supreme Court case that struck down parts of the federal law that outlaws same sex marriage, and for co-founding Time's Up Legal Defense Fund. Thank you both for joining me.Amy Spitalnick (01:53):Thank you so much for having us.Roberta Kaplan (01:54):Yeah, it's our pleasure.Jay Ruderman (01:56):So let me start off by asking you. On Friday, August 11th, 2017, how did you hear about the shocking riots that were taking place in Charlottesville?Amy Spitalnick (02:09):I think many of us remember the visceral feeling we had when we saw those images coming out of Charlottesville of neo-Nazis carrying tiki torches, chanting things like, "Jews will not replace us," and "Blood in soil." They marched on the University of Virginia, where they violently attacked the small group of peaceful counter protesters. Of course, the violence continued throughout the weekend, culminating in the car attack that killed Heather Heyer, and injured so many of the plaintiffs in our lawsuit.Amy Spitalnick (02:38):What's so, I think, horrifying about this, not just in the moment when we all were watching this four years ago, but looking at the cycle of violence that followed, is how Charlottesville really previewed the cycle of extremism that's been poisoning this country over the last few years. For me, as a Jewish American, as the granddaughter of Holocaust survivors, I remember how I felt watching the violence in Charlottesville, and sort of like how gutting it felt, for lack of a better term. Watching people pulling from the same age old anti-Semitism and hate, and using it in this new manifestation to violently attack people. Jews, black people, and so many others fueled by this resurgent extremism, white supremacy, and anti-Semitism.Amy Spitalnick (03:31):The idea that something like that could happen in America in 2017 was, I think, for me and for many, still baffling four years ago. What we know since, watching the cycle of violence. Pittsburgh, Poway, El Paso, the Capitol attack, and certainly the horrific rise in anti-Semitic, anti-Asian and other hate crimes happening right now is that unfortunately none of us should be surprised by this anymore. Rather, Charlottesville truly was the harbinger, the preview of the violence and the hate that's followed.Jay Ruderman (04:12):Roberta, I read that I think later on, when Trump made some comments about what happened in Charlottesville, and saying essentially something like, "There were good people on both sides." Was that the impetus for you to get involved?Roberta Kaplan (04:30):So like most things of consequence that happened in the world, a lot of what happened here was coincidence, in the sense that I, like Amy and millions of other Americans, was kind of watching the events of Charlottesville unfold in real time, or at least the events of August 11th and 12th. I, like everyone else, was horrifyingly glued to my TV screen, watching what was happening. It just so happens that I had opened my own law firm as of July 2017, but we didn't have any office at first. I think our lease started August 7th, 2017. So the first full week that we were in our office was the week after Charlottesville. I kind of naively had this point had decided when I look back on it, had decided two days after Charlottesville, which was August 15th, that I would kind of ordering pizzas for lunch, and then with the grand total of six employees that we had at that point, we would watch the news coverage together, because I wanted my law firm to be very dedicated to doing work in the public interest.Roberta Kaplan (05:46):The reason I said naively is because watching the events on TV were so horrifying, and I remember at least one of the paralegals running out of the room in tears. It certainly wasn't pizza, movie watching stuff. But particularly when I heard Trump say that day, I believe it was August 15th, that there are very fine people on both sides, it immediately occurred to me that something needed to be done, and most importantly, that the Department of Justice, which is the division of the federal government that is entrusted with dealing with issues like this, most specifically the civil rights division at the Department of Justice, likely wasn't going to do much, because at that point in time, Jeff Sessions was the attorney general. Jeff Sessions, to be blunt, does not have a particularly good record on civil rights. I was very concerned that the federal government wouldn't do what should be done to investigate and prosecute the conspiracy that occurred.Roberta Kaplan (06:50):So kind of out of my own craziness or [foreign language 00:06:55], I decided if they're not going to do anything, I guess I will. I started immediately to think about what could be done and how a civil lawsuit could be brought against the men responsible for what happened.Jay Ruderman (07:09):So I guess both for Robbie and Amy, when did you realize that this was not a spontaneous gathering of white supremacists and anti-Semites, and people filled with hate, but it was actually an organized event that took a lot of planning?Roberta Kaplan (07:29):So on that issue, we got a very, very lucky break. I should go back and look at the dates. But as I recall, very quickly after Charlottesville happened, someone, to this day I don't know who it is, but someone somehow managed to hack into the computer servers at Discord, which previously had been kind of a computer gamer site. But had managed to hack into those servers, and published publicly, on a website known as Unicorn Riot, many, not all. But many of the messages that the organizers of the so called rally published on Discord for many, many months leading up to Charlottesville. Those messages showed quite clearly the very deliberate planning that went into what happened, the fact that they intended for what happened, the violence and injury and ultimately death that happened to happen, and the fact that once it was over, they celebrated it as kind of a mission accomplished. So most of that, or at least our first kind of awareness that this was not some random, unplanned thing, came as a result of those Discord chats.Jay Ruderman (08:49):Did that give you sort of the legal basis to say, "Okay, there's something here. There's a lawsuit here."Roberta Kaplan (08:57):Exactly. So it's very unusual. Normally when you file a civil case, you don't have much by way of documentation till you do file a case, and then if you survive a motion to dismiss, you get what in the American court system called discovery, so you can ask the other side for documents, take depositions, et cetera. It's very unusual in a case to have what here was effectively pre-trial discovery before we'd even filed a complaint. It was that information on Unicorn Riot that we used, not only to figure out what happened, and to be able to determine in good faith that there was in fact a conspiracy that had been planned for months leading up to Charlottesville. But even more importantly, I think it gave us the ability to identify who was truly responsible. We weren't interested in just suing anyone who happened to show up in Charlottesville. We wanted to sue the men and the groups who were the leaders, who planned it, who encouraged their followers to attend, and some of whom ultimately engaged in the violence itself.Amy Spitalnick (10:04):What I was going to add is specifically it's worth remembering and understanding what those tracks showed us, which is that not only was there meticulous planning of the logistics around this, so the mundane, the banal, what to wear, what to bring for lunch. When Hannah Arent talks about the banality of evil, I think this is what she meant. But also there was discussion down to explicit conversations of whether they could hit protestors with cars and then claim self-defense, which is of course precisely want happened. So when Robbie says that these chats really illustrated the racist conspiracy that happened in Charlottesville, the meticulousness of how it was planned, the details are just truly stunning, and you can see some of those chats in the complaint itself, which is on our website, and which I think really should remain as horrific now as it did then four years ago when these chats first released out into the world.Jay Ruderman (11:04):Amy, maybe you could talk a little about the establishment of Integrity First for America, how it came about, at what time did it come about, and what are the main objectives of the organization?Amy Spitalnick (11:17):Absolutely. As Robbie was saying earlier, in 2017, I think there was a feeling that the Department of Justice and specifically the civil rights division was not going to be as invested or as enthusiastic about protecting our civil rights as they should be, to put it lightly. It was clear that there would be gaps in enforcement, gaps in the sort of public interest litigation and work that is so central to both protecting people's rights when they are attacked and abused, as they were in Charlottesville, and continuing to advance the cause of equity and justice.Amy Spitalnick (11:53):So Integrity First for America came about in 2017, in order to help fill that gap, in order to support private plaintiffs, like the ones in our Charlottesville lawsuit in fighting for civil rights and fighting for justice in a moment when it was clear the traditional federal government establishment that would typically play that role was unlikely to be pursuing it with any enthusiasm, again, to put it likely.Amy Spitalnick (12:20):IFA was getting off the ground as Charlottesville happened, and when Robbie identified the potential for a lawsuit, when it was clear that there was a case to be made based on those online chats, based on the horrific violence that the plaintiffs survived, it seemed like the perfect fit for IFA. So this is really the centerpiece of our work. The Charlottesville case is just too big, too important, too resource intensive for us to be trying to balance it with 700 other cases. So at Integrity First for America, when we came in to support the plaintiffs in this case, it really did become the central part of our work, and of course, we think the case itself provides a crucial opportunity, not just to hold accountable and bring to justice those responsible for what happened in Charlottesville, but also to really create a model for accountability more broadly, have these major financial and operational impacts on the defendants and the white supremacist movement, and drive a public conversation on the rise of extremism and violent hate in this country at a time when it's so crucially needed.Jay Ruderman (13:32):As a former prosecutor, I'm used to the government stepping in and taking a role and saying, "Okay, this is something we have to investigate and then eventually prosecute," which I understand the reasons why it may not have happened in this case. But maybe you can talk a little bit about how you went about meeting the people who became eventually the plaintiffs in the lawsuit, and how you got them to sign on, because my guess is there's an element of fear of people stepping forward in a situation where they may face threats from the defendants.Roberta Kaplan (14:13):Sure. So basically what happened is, is after we had all watched that coverage, the horror of the coverage over the weekend and then early the next week, and after the Discord chats were released, as you said, it was pretty clear to me that we had sufficient evidence to bring a case. But I knew we needed plaintiffs, and I knew we needed a legal theory. So plaintiffs was the first step. What we did there is I called a good friend of mine, Dahlia Lithwick, who many of your listeners may know because she's one of the preeminent writers about the Supreme Court. But I actually didn't call her for that reason. She's a phenomenal lawyer, but I called Dahlia because I knew she lived in Charlottesville, and she and her husband and their two sons had lived there for many years.Roberta Kaplan (15:05):So I called her and said, "Look. I have this crazy idea. I'm thinking about bringing this case, what do you think?" Basically her reaction was, "Listen, Robbie. I think it's a great idea. I'm happy to put you in touch with folks down here. I know people who you should speak to, and I'm happy to do that. But ironically enough, we're literally in the process right now of packing a van because we're moving to New York, because we decided that the anti-Semitism there is so horrible, and so pervasive that we can no longer raise our kids here."Roberta Kaplan (15:44):So that's what happened. She put me in touch with some folks. I think within 24 or 48 hours after that call, we were on a plane to Charlottesville. It was still not too long after the events had happened, and I think it's fair to say that the small town, and for those of you, people who haven't been there, it's really a lovely, bucolic college town. But it's fair to say that the town was still very much in a state of shock. Many of the leaders and others who were involved in the violence had driven into Charlottesville, then kind of traveled around Charlottesville using these large, white Mercedes vans. Vans like that were still driving around the streets of Charlottesville, particularly in the African American neighborhoods. So the people, including the African Americans were petrified and rightly so.Roberta Kaplan (16:44):We got down there, and Dahlia and her friends had arranged a whole group of people to meet with us, and we said to these people, who you're absolutely right, are incredibly brave. We said to them, "Look, we're thinking about bringing this case." All of our plaintiffs had been seriously injured in some way, and we said, "We understand you've been injured, and there may be quicker ways to try to get some compensation. We may have a case against the police for negligence. You may have a claim, if you were involved in the events on Friday night, against the University of Virginia. We obviously have no issue with you bringing those claims, but if you do bring those claims, you can't join our lawsuit, and we don't want to bring those claims for a whole bunch of reasons, but most prominently because we want to sue the people who are directly responsible here, which are organizers of the rally itself."Roberta Kaplan (17:41):Everyone of the people who joined the lawsuit as plaintiffs basically said, "Okay, I'm signed up," and that included people who had very, very severe injuries. So not only was it a sacrifice on their part because we filed the case in October '17, it's now May 2021, and we have a trial on the horizon, but it's taken a long time to get there. But two, I'm pretty comfortable that the damages in the case are going to be incredibly high that the jury awards. I think the likelihood of our plaintiffs recovering those damages in full is very low. That's something we told them too at the time.Roberta Kaplan (18:17):Then on top of all that, as you suggested, many of them were harassed kind of leading up to Charlottesville because they were activists in the community. Many of them have continued to be harassed and doxxed in Charlottesville and obviously becoming plaintiffs in our case made that an even greater risk for them.Jay Ruderman (18:36):So I'm curious as to how, Amy, how you and Robbie actually met, and does Integrity First for America, is it the fundraising that the organization does that is able to support the litigation?Amy Spitalnick (18:54):Yes. Now, I think Robbie and I have tried to figure out when we first exactly crossed paths, but it was at some point while I was working in a New York attorney general's office, and unsurprisingly, some of the cases we were bringing them to protect folks' civil rights, to protect consumers, including our case against the Trump Foundation and otherwise, seemed to sort of unofficially intersect with some of the work Robbie was doing. So we crossed paths at some point when I was in the AG's office, and in the course of that relationship, Robbie called me up one day, and said, "I have an idea for you. Would you be interested in helping us sue Nazis?" I don't know how anyone can say no to that. Certainly it's hard to say no to Robbie in general. But particularly when she asks a question like that, I don't know how anyone can turn down the opportunity to be a part of this fight, particularly at a moment when I think it's so crucial.Amy Spitalnick (20:00):In terms of Integrity First for America and our role, that's exactly right. So this case, as Robbie has said, has not been easy. It has not been fast, and there are some unique dynamics at play here that don't tradionally exist in most civil litigation, including and especially threats, harassment, and the need for security. So while the legal work in this case is being generously donated by the five total firms that have been involved over the course of this case, there are major expenses that exist, including security, which is the biggest line item in our budget, because the threats and harassment our plaintiffs get, our legal team gets, IFA gets, others involved get. So there are other expenses around this case that don't tradionally exist in most civil litigation, and some of those expenses are definitely compounded by the fact that the defendants have tried every opportunity and excuse to avoid accountability here, including those who have claimed their phones have fallen into toilets, which is the dog ate my homework of Nazi excuses, and a variety of other tools and tactics to really try to escape accountability.Amy Spitalnick (21:10):We've been successful at stopping them at every turn, and we are scheduled for trial this October in Charlottesville. But it has certainly been an intense and a resource intensive effort to get here, to make sure that our team can win in October, and that we are safe and secure in doing so.Jay Ruderman (21:29):So the defendants are neo-Nazis, Ku Klux Klan, Proud Boys, white supremacists, is that sort of the mix of defendants that you're going after right now?Roberta Kaplan (21:42):Correct. It's a combination of individuals and groups. They are all either Ku Klux Klan, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, or some combination of all above, although they all have these very kind of absurd technical distinctions they make about what they are and what they are not. They probably include the greatest hits of what's known as the alt-right movement. So Richard Spencer, who's probably the most prominent person in this movement, until Charlottesville, up until our lawsuit, is one of the private defendants. Chris Cantwell, who for people who've seen the Vice video about Charlottesville, he's probably known as the crying Nazi, because he's seen in that video crying somewhat from tear gas, I think, but then later in a hotel room with just an enormous arsenal of weapons.Roberta Kaplan (22:38):Andrew England, who's a neo-Nazi, is one of the individual defendants, and then the two guys, probably the most important, are two guys who actually the ability to decide who could be a member of the Discord chat. You had to ask for an opportunity to participate, and those two guys are a local person by the name of Jason Kessler, and another guy by the name of Klein, and super importantly, with respect to the second individual, we have obtained adverse inference rulings from the judge based on both his lying in discovery, and his failure to participate in good faith in discovery, and those adverse inference rulings are going to result in the jury being instructed by the judge to assume that Klein was a member of a violent conspiracy intending to commit racially motivated violence in Charlottesville [inaudible 00:23:38]. So my entire career as a lawyer, I've wanted to get an adverse inference ruling, but like that, we finally got one here.Amy Spitalnick (23:45):It's really important to understand just how central they are to this movement. So of course many of them on their own have been leaders for years. We also know that they're deeply connected to the broader cycle of white supremacist and extremist violence in recent years. We know, for example, the Pittsburgh shooter, who killed 11 Jews praying in synagogue two and a half years ago communicated with some of the Charlottesville leaders before his attack. The Christchurch shooter who killed dozens of Muslims praying in mosques in New Zealand two years ago donated to two of our defendants, and painted onto his gun a white power symbol that was popularized by a third. Christchurch was live streamed, and in turn inspired the Poway Chabad attack, the El Paso Walmart attack, and so you see how this cycle of violence goes, in which each attack is used to inspire the next one.Amy Spitalnick (24:32):And over and over again, we see how our defendants, how these leaders and groups really are at the center of this movement, and it speaks to how this case can have a major impact, not just on what happened in Charlottesville, and not just on the Charlottesville community, but on this broader network of extremists who are deeply interconnected and who have helped fuel and encourage so much of the violence we've seen in recent years.Jay Ruderman (24:56):So obviously you're talking about people who are not only have extremist, racist, anti-Semitic views, but are willing to act on them. So it brings me to the question that both of you are putting yourselves out very publicly, as opposing people who are extremely violent. Are you taking precautions for your own security? Because I would have to imagine there are many threats that are coming your way.Amy Spitalnick (25:25):The short answer is yes, and yes. I think I mentioned earlier that security is by far the biggest line item in our budget, and that is because these defendants and their supporters have used threats, have used harassment and violence as a means to try to scare our plaintiffs, our legal team, and IFA away from holding them accountable. This is not a shocking tactic, this is exactly how they operate, but it still means we have to take precautions. In some cases, that means the defendants have directly threatened us, like Chris Cantwell, who talked about all the fun he's going to have with Robbie when this is over, in additionally anti-Semitic and misogynistic terms that I won't repeat or. Or another defendant who posted just a few weeks ago that I should personally be scared of him, or one of the defendants who sits live streaming in the middle of the night talking about Robbie and I and others in our team. I think in particular their focus has been on the Jewish women who are leading this effort, which is a testament to how directly they are fueled by both anti-Semitism and misogyny in this effort.Amy Spitalnick (26:37):Of course, there's also a greater risk there, which is the ability of these defendants to use social media to rile their loyal followers to action, and we see how that has happened in the course of the extremist violence over the last few years, and it makes it all the more important that we take precautions. So without going into details about the precautions we take, suffice it to say we keep a close eye on the threats, the harassment that are being made against us, and when we go to trial this fall, security will be the most important concern for our team. Making sure that Robbie and our legal team and our plaintiffs and our expert witnesses can go to trial and feel safe and secure in presenting our case without having to worry about the defendants' threats of violence.Jay Ruderman (27:23):So let me ask you sort of a theoretical question. Neo-Nazis, white supremacists, are they just a problem that they're going to be around forever, or do you feel that there's a way that they will stop existing or at least give up their ways of anti-Semitism and racism?Roberta Kaplan (27:46):So Amy should speak to this, but let me start. I think my mind has changed on this. I was born in 1966, and while I had heard stories from my parents and my grandparents of anti-Semitism in this country, I personally, not that I'm aware of, that I've ever experienced it. I grew up in a suburb of Cleveland, Ohio that has a lot of Jews. I went to colleges on the East Coast with a lot of Jews. And then I moved to New York City with an enormous number of Jews. While of course, I don't know what was said about my back, it's not something that I really consciously encountered in my life.Roberta Kaplan (28:29):Charlottesville, and I think it's what spurred me to action, was a huge radical break from that past. The idea that openly avowed Nazis were marching on the streets of an American town, chanting things like, "Jews back into the ovens," and doing so with weapons was horrifying to me. So I honestly think that while I might have said in the past that I thought anti-Semitism had been kind of defeated or maybe beaten down in the United States of America, I think today I'm not sure I would say that's true. I think that at best, what we can say is that these hatreds exist. They've always existed. The [inaudible 00:29:17] always exist throughout history, as we know so tragically. But that prior to kind of this new alt-right movement, and prior to the encouragement of that movement by Donald Trump and his allies, people who held these views were ashamed or embarrassed to voice them.Roberta Kaplan (29:39):What changed in August 2017 was that they now felt emboldened to leave their basements, come up on the streets, and actually start beating and murdering people. So I guess it's a long way to say, my goal here, frankly, is to send them back into their basements. I'm not naïve enough anymore to think that we can get rid of their thoughts, but we can get rid of their ability motivated by those thoughts to commit violence on the streets of American cities.Jay Ruderman (30:14):A friend of mine, Abe Foxman, who was the past head of the past head of the Anti-Defamation League, once said, "There's no vaccine for anti-Semitism." So it's my understanding as the case goes on, there will be two main successes that hopefully will come out of it. One is to raise the issue for the general public in the United States and around the world of the existence of these organizations and how connected they are and how organized they are. But also, if the legislation is successful, to really financially hurt these organizations and to take away the financial resources to allow them to move forward and do things like they did in Charlottesville. Would you say that's part of the outcome that you're looking for?Roberta Kaplan (31:10):One of the ways I look at this, is if you look at kind of the course of American history every couple decades or so, there's a trial that happens that tends to be about much more than the parties in the case. If you go back in history. Think about the Scopes monkey trial or cases like that. Sacco and Vanzetti. In terms of our own generation, or at least my generation, the prop 8 trial that was happening in California with David [inaudible 00:31:37] at the same time I was doing the Edie Windsor case, I think really shed a lot of light on how irrational the arguments were against marriage equality for gay and lesbian couples.Roberta Kaplan (31:50):I think that this trial is very likely to have the same impact. I think that while Americans now, especially after January 6th, are certainly aware that this problem exists, are probably more aware now that this problem exists, I don't think enough Americans, and frankly enough Jews fully understand the depth of the problem, and fully understand the danger that is posed by these groups, who again feel so emboldened to do what they do quite openly.Roberta Kaplan (32:23):I think that this trial before a jury, for two to three weeks, in the town of Charlottesville, is going to be that kind of a trial. We're going to have evidence, obviously, from our plaintiffs. We're going to have evidence from the defendants, and we're going to have expert testimony from people like Deborah Lipstadt, the very eminent Holocaust scholar, who will explain to the jury that the language and symbolism used by the defendants in this case traces itself straight back to what happened with Hitler in Nazi Germany.Jay Ruderman (33:01):We're living through a time right now where there's a lot of, ironically, recording this, there's a lot of anti-Semitism throughout America. All of us grew up here and lived our lives here. Do you feel comfortable as a Jew in America right now?Roberta Kaplan (33:22):I have started brushing up on my Hebrew every day with these little iPhone Hebrew programs. Just in case I feel the need, just as Dahlia moved from Charlottesville to New York, I feel the need to leave the country. I don't say that as in any way imminent, and I'm doing this in part to fight back, but given Jewish history, I think it would be naïve not to think that it's not possible, if we don't succeed in this fight.Amy Spitalnick (33:51):I think we're living in uniquely frightening times. I mentioned earlier, I'm the granddaughter of Holocaust survivors, and it's impossible not to look at my family's history, and the history of so many other Jews in this country and see parallels. See parallels with the darkest times in our history as a people. But I also think that unlike my grandparents' generation, there are particular reasons for hope, and specifically the fact that we have a justice system, we have a rule of law. We have laws like the Ku Klux Klan Act, and we are using them to fight back. So for me, at a particularly dark time, that gives me hope, that gives me optimism.Amy Spitalnick (34:34):We need to fight like crazy not only to use those tools to take on extremism, anti-Semitism, other forms of violent hate, but also to protect the system and to improve the system and make sure it's working equitably and fairly for everyone it's meant to protect. But that doesn't mean that we can't use the tools we have right now to take action, and at a really dark time, that gives me hope, while still being, of course, cautious and like any American Jew, anxious about what the future holds.Jay Ruderman (35:09):So let me end with Robbie and Amy, you've dedicated your lives to legal advocacy. Maybe on a personal level, can you just tell us, what's the greatest thing you get from what you've devoted your life too, and what's the hardest part of devoting your life to legal advocacy?Amy Spitalnick (35:31):For me, the work that we're doing at Integrity First for America is sort of the natural follow to the work that I did at the attorney general's office before that, and I spent a lot of my career in public service and government. For me, it's the belief that while we have to be proactive, while we have to be aggressive, there are ways in which we can move the needle, that we can move the ball forward. Particularly in this case, as I've mentioned, even before we get to trial, seeing the impact a case like this can have. Seeing Richard Spencer talk about how we've financially crippled him. Seeing the accountability and the justice that these extremists are finally facing at a time when there has been so little accountability, I think there is so much value in that.Amy Spitalnick (36:26):Value not just because of the direct impact it has on these extremists on others who are looking to this in terms of the consequences they might face, but also because it really provides a model for accountability in justice moving forward. If we as a small nonprofit with incredible lawyers like Robbie and others, if we can financially cripple Richard Spencer, imagine what could be done if the full weight of the tools we have were brought to bear in the fight against extremism. So for me, that gives me optimism that I think teaches us that there is power in the system that we have, and again, while we have to fight to improve that system, we have to fight to improve the tools we have, we can use them right now, and keep moving the needle forward in whichever way possible.Roberta Kaplan (37:22):I've spent a lot of my life, a lot of my adult life, at least, dedicated to the proposition that the law and the courts can be used to obtain justice. I feel that the point of living is to fight for those principles, and my best way to do that is to do it as a lawyer [inaudible 00:37:40] The hard part about it though, of course, is when you get into the depths of the hatred that exists, and reading these messages from the defendants in our Charlottesville case, it's not like you can [inaudible 00:37:56]Roberta Kaplan (37:57):It's hard. It's emotionally hard. I find the best way to deal with it is through humor, and one of the things we've done on our team is we kind of have a joke that at some point we want to publish a coffee table book entitled Things Nazis Also Say. Because on the one hand, while they're talking about using weaponry, and how to organize marches through Charlottesville and how to make it look like an act of self-defense, or how to run over a protester, and make it look like an act of self-defense. On the one hand, when they're doing that, at the same time they have messages about literally the most banal of subjects. So for example, there's a huge discussion leading up to August 12th about what's the best way to pack sandwiches, how to make sure the sandwiches don't spoil in the sun if you use mayonnaise, and my personal favorite is a whole discussion about which type of gluten free bread would be best to use.Roberta Kaplan (39:00):You kind of have to puncture through kind of the tragedy and the sadness of all of it with humor, and that's at least how we manage to do it on our case, and I promise, some day we will publish those messages, because they're definitely worth reading.Jay Ruderman (39:18):That sounds great. I want to wish you both a lot of success and to stay safe and secure. We need your advocacy out there to make our country and our world a better place. Amy, if people want to get involved, I assume they should go to the website for Integrity First for America, and there's a way that they can contribute that way.Amy Spitalnick (39:44):Absolutely. So if you go to integrityfirstforamerica.org, you can get involved. You can sign up for updates. You can donate. Know that every single donation for IFA directly supports this case, and specifically the security and evidence collection costs that I mentioned earlier. You can use our sample social media content to spread the word. We want to make sure that of course not only our team is well resourced and safe and secure when we go to trial this fall, but that people know that this is happening, that this case can be used to ring the alarm bells about the crisis of extremism in this country. So everything folks can do, anything folks can do. Spreading the word, donating, it all makes a huge difference for us as we prepare for trial in October.Jay Ruderman (40:31):Thank you so much both of you for joining me today on All Inclusive. It was a great conversation, and so important.Roberta Kaplan (40:37):Thank you for having us.Amy Spitalnick (40:38):Thank you so much.Speaker 3 (40:40):All Inclusive is a production of the Ruderman Family Foundation. Our key mission is the full inclusion of people with disabilities in all aspects of society. You can find All Inclusive on Apple Podcast, Google Play, Spotify, and Stitcher. To view the show notes, transcripts, or to learn more, go to rudermanfoundation.org/allinclusive. Have an idea for a podcast? Be sure to tweet @jayruderman.

Jay Ruderman (00:00):Public speaking is Americans' biggest fear. Now, imagine you bump into someone in the airport and they tell you they want you to speak to a crowd of thousands at a TEDx Talk.Speaker 2 (00:17):All Inclusive, a podcast on inclusion, innovation, and social justice with Jay Ruderman.Jay Ruderman (00:27):Hi, I'm Jay Ruderman, and this is All Inclusive. Our guest today is Brandon Farbstein, and he did just that, and now he gives motivational speeches across the country. Brandon, thank you for joining us today and really enjoyed watching your TED Talk and learning a little bit more about you. Why don't you tell us about where you grew up and how you got your start in activism?Brandon Farbstein (01:00):Absolutely. Well, first off thank you so much for having me, Jay, I'm honored to be on. And I really found my voice when I was 15, and I'll get into that. But a little bit more of a backstory, I grew up in Richmond, Virginia, and I have a rare form of dwarfism, so I stand at 3'9" and obviously don't have "the average perspective."Jay Ruderman (01:28):One thing that struck me that I heard you say in one of your recordings was a pivotal time in your life when you were 15 years old and lost hope and contemplated suicide. And I want to talk a little bit about mental health and how you got to that point and how you pivoted and said, "Okay, well, I'm not going down that direction and I'm choosing a different direction in my life."Brandon Farbstein (01:59):Absolutely. Mental health for me has always been a very big aspect of my life and just my journey in general. And it really began for me when I was 11 years old and that is when depression and suicidal thoughts really hit me like a tsunami. There was no one specific thing that happened or that set me off but I got home from school one day, I think it was either in the fifth or the sixth grade, and I said to my mom, "I can't do this anymore. There's no point of me being here. I'm weird, I'm ugly, and I'm going to go kill myself."Brandon Farbstein (02:41):And at that point in my life I was so done with suffering as much as I did. And it wasn't just the emotional suffering but with my conditions comes daily pain and mobility issues. So having both of those stacked against you along with society just automatically not accepting you on the first glance because you're so different and people aren't used to that, and again, I thought that was such a negative thing for me. But it wasn't until I got to that moment where I was moments away from ending my life and my mom was the one that physically stopped me from doing so.Brandon Farbstein (03:25):And I reached the point where I started getting professional help and it took about six different therapists and counselors for me to finally find one that I could be comfortable enough to open up to and be raw and real with. But I think understanding how vital it is to find somebody to speak to, finding a professional that can get you out of the hole that you're in, because the truth of the matter is this, we cannot do this thing called life by ourselves. We need this constant love and support of not only our family and friends but also people in the mental health field, doctors, professionals that are able to help us when we need help.Brandon Farbstein (04:11):And I think a big misconception is that it's weak to ask for help. But in fact, I think it's one of the most empowering things that we can do for ourselves when we're able to speak up and say, "You know what? I'm not in a great place right now. I need to find someone to help get me out." That's not only doing a huge service, giving yourself a huge gift for getting yourself out of that place that you're in, but truly it's unlocking your potential to give the light and the gifts that you have inside of you and share that with the rest of the world.Brandon Farbstein (04:47):And for me, that's been huge to help me get out of my own way and understand the fact that what I'm doing is so much bigger than me. And even if I'm having a crappy day, what I always do to snap myself out of it is figuring out how I could make somebody else's day just a little bit better. And it's honestly as simple as sending a text to a friend saying, "Hey, I'm checking in on you. How are you doing? Thinking about you." Or it's calling up somebody that you haven't connected with in a few months or maybe a couple of years and just saying, "Hi."Brandon Farbstein (05:24):We often think that we have to make these huge monumental shifts for change to happen but I would argue that you don't need to change everything for everything to change, start with what you can control, which is your own inner world, focusing on where your thoughts are going and what is consuming your time and energy as well and it makes the world of a difference truly.Jay Ruderman (05:49):So there's so much to talk about and unpack from what you just said, but I just want to dig a little bit deeper. I mean, your family, your contemplating suicide must've been so traumatic and difficult for them but yet it seems like they were a pivotal part of getting you the help that you needed to have a different perspective on life. And maybe if you feel comfortable talking about how your family reacted and how they really helped you out in that situation.Brandon Farbstein (06:21):Yeah, absolutely. For me, I have two superheroes as parents and my mom and dad have always pushed me to be my own advocate and to speak up when I need to, whether it's for myself or it's the world around me that I see something going on and I need to say something. But I think it's having the mindset that they always instilled in me that, yes, I'm different. Yes, I have things going on that other people don't but that's not a reason to live life small and to not be the fullest version of who Brandon is. And I think it's also a really big aspect to not try, and if your child has a difference, making them work really hard to love that person and who they see in the mirror. Because it's really difficult obviously when society is telling you, "You're weird, you're ugly, you're deformed," all these things, but you have to make the voice inside your head the loudest influence and the loudest of them all.Brandon Farbstein (07:34):And my parents did a really incredible job of that ever since I was very young and started recognizing I think when I was four, when I had one of my major leg surgeries and I was the only one in a wheelchair, they made me realize that, yes, I'm different and I'm unique but that's such a gift, and other people don't have the gifts that I have. And just coming from a place of love and as much acceptance of myself and the world around me as possible, but obviously I had to learn a lot of that for myself and through the experiences that I had. But going back to what it was like for them I can see from the place that I'm at now how devastating it was.Brandon Farbstein (08:26):And it must have been that we weren't able to talk about because I was obviously going through my own battle and it was a matter of life and death at that point. And they were also going through a battle trying to get me out of that but also the toll that it takes on my older sister and our family as a whole. So I have just so much love and admiration for my family for really helping me become the person that I am today and pushing me out of those darkest moments.Jay Ruderman (09:02):Let's talk a little bit about the bullying because obviously that bullying affected you greatly and led you to a place where you were in a very dark spot and considering suicide. What was it like growing up? Were you in the public school system where these classmates, where these random people on the street... Because you've born the brunt of bullying. Was it cyber bullying or was it face-to-face? I mean, how did you experience that?Brandon Farbstein (09:38):Yeah, I always went to public school from K until I graduated 12th grade. And it started as just not being included in things, especially in the elementary and early middle school years. And I wouldn't exactly call that bullying but right as social media started to really become an integral part of our lives probably back in 2013-ish. I was in, I think the seventh grade, that's when I started really feeling the effects of cyber bullying and having that ripple across my life and to not just being on my phone but also being in school and changing the way people react to me.Brandon Farbstein (10:33):And it started just going really viciously into me being different and knowing that I wasn't like the other kids. I honestly started hating myself and I wanted nothing more than to fit in and to have friends and to be invited to places and accepted. And I started listening to the things that people would say about me that I would never find love and how unattractive I was. And this really got to a boiling point in high school though, that's when it got really bad for me.Brandon Farbstein (11:14):It started the very first week of my freshman year. And as you probably saw in the TEDx Talk I ride this mini Segway that at the time was this really cool-looking bright yellow Transformer-like Lamborghini hybrid thing that obviously drew a lot of attention. And when you're in a high school with 2000 peers, you don't want that type of attention and it was not positive at all. Unfortunately, the first incident I think was literally on the second day of school and it was a tweet that was sent out, a picture of me in the hall on my Segway saying, "The first person to punch this midget off the Segway gets $5." That was what greeted me when I got to high school and it went absolutely downhill from there.Brandon Farbstein (12:09):But the interesting part and where I thought things would change was towards the end of my freshman year was when I gave my TEDx Talk. And I thought that would help and I thought it would make me be looked at differently like I was more than just the small kid and I was more than the person that was on the receiving end of all of these attacks on social media constantly, but unfortunately it made it worse. And like I just mentioned, having that type of attention in a school of 2000 people where everybody wants to be the same, everybody wants to fit in and follow the trends and do what everyone else is doing, it was literal hell for me.Brandon Farbstein (12:54):And it got to the point where I started receiving a new death threat, what seemed like almost every single week from the peers at my school, ranging from having them send me emails through the motivational speaking website that I set up, or making fake accounts on Instagram that said, "This disgusting midget should have been gassed in the Holocaust." Or, "Who the F does he think he is? Nobody gives a damn about what he has to say." Just all of these sick, sick things.Brandon Farbstein (13:30):And then I finally received one that made me just stop in my tracks. It was an email that I got saying, "Midget, if you don't kill yourself somebody is going to come to your house on Thursday and shank you in the kidney." And at that point I realized, "Wow, I can't do this anymore. This is so toxic. This is affecting literally every aspect of my life." It wasn't just my school performance, it wasn't just my mental health, but as you can imagine going through those traumas week after week and almost every single day walking into that school and feeling like you're the target amongst nearly all of these people is an incredibly difficult thing.Brandon Farbstein (14:20):But I think what kept me afloat was the fact that I had this mission that I discovered. And if I didn't have the realization that I had of what my purpose is at 15 through that TEDx Talk and having something bigger than me that could serve as my strength and inspiration that I could fall back on when I had none of my own, I don't know what the outcome would have been but it definitely would not be me sitting here with the work that I've done and the accomplishments that I've been able to achieve because of making that decision that I'm not going to be the victim of my circumstances anymore. I'm going to use what I have and become the victor.Jay Ruderman (15:05):Was your school system at any... Did they help at all throughout this process?Brandon Farbstein (15:09):I'll be as honest as I can and I'm just going to blatantly say, no, they did not help. They were being the opposite of helpful for a lot of these specific cases and just... I think the mindset that they had and albeit it was, if it's not happening on school property, AKA, it was happening in the afternoon or in the evenings, so they claimed it wasn't during school hours or on school grounds, that there wasn't anything that they could do.Brandon Farbstein (15:41):And there was part of me that absolutely understood that. But the other part of me that didn't is when there started to become videos and pictures of me in the halls of my high school, clearly showing during the school day this was happening. And even if it was being waited to post until after the school day which these kids were smart in trying to evade the rules as much as possible, but what really shocked both myself and my family is when it started to get into all these threats and people saying for me to not only kill myself but that I was going to get hurt.Brandon Farbstein (16:26):And another one that came in was somebody who was going to put an IED bomb on my Segway. And obviously just this crazy array of things that people clearly did not mean and were saying it to try and get attention or try and get a response from me. But we then involved the local police department and tried to get the district attorney involved in pressing charges and even just getting a restraining order to find out who this person was so that I wasn't in any actual harm. Because I went into this school every day not knowing who was behind these attacks. And that was just retraumatizing so much to not only be on the receiving end of all of this hate and the disgusting vile comments, but to think that anybody around me, anybody I was sitting next to in a classroom could have been the ones that did it.Brandon Farbstein (17:29):And what we chose to do through a friendship that we had with a state delegate here in Virginia, we decided to start testifying at the Virginia General Assembly. And I think I testified about five different times to various committees and subcommittees sharing my story and sharing really what it was like to actually be on the receiving end of something like this and have to leave my high school midway through my junior year because I started getting all of these death threats and I was terrified to walk in that building and let alone the effect that it was having on me mental health wise. And we were able to get two laws passed, one that is a bullying prevention aim and the other one that's big on social and emotional learning that requires empathy to be taught in the public school curriculum, starting in kindergarten and building on every single year from that until they graduate high school.Jay Ruderman (18:31):People have talked about mental health and I think life today is extremely stressful no matter who you are. And I think it's becoming more acceptable to talk about mental health and not just to bottle everything up inside which ultimately will lead to very negative feelings and self-harm. You touched on it but I just want to delve a little bit deeper into the fact that you really helped pass two new laws in Virginia around bullying and social, emotional learning. One specifically that requires curriculum on empathy to be taught in all K-12 classrooms. I wonder if you could just delve a little bit more deeply into that process and what these laws aim to accomplish.Brandon Farbstein (19:23):Yeah. The first one that we got passed in 2017 when I first started testifying fixed a loophole that allowed school administrators to basically keep families and parents out of the loop of what was going on involving a bullying investigation or an incident. And we really discovered how detrimental that is for families when my own was trying to... Obviously my parents like I mentioned are my biggest superheroes and they wanted nothing more than to be involved in all of these different cases and trying to make sure I'm as safe as possible. But when they requested to get information or to get a call back from the principal or the administration we received nothing, and it was almost like we were left on a deserted island with no support system around from the school.Brandon Farbstein (20:22):And this first law requires school administrators and officials to alert parents within five days of an investigation, mandating that they have to report what their findings are and what next steps are in terms of if their child was a victim, what the punishment is for the perpetrator, and the plan to sure that it doesn't happen again. And if the child is the bully, then obviously alerting the parents that they're in trouble and whatever the disciplinary action is on that point.Brandon Farbstein (21:01):And that for me was a smaller step in the direction of where I wanted to go. Every little bit counts, no doubt, but this next one that you mentioned on empathy for me is definitely one of my proudest accomplishments because I truly believe everything good starts with empathy. Humanity begins with empathy. Empathy is the line in the sand of where to start from in terms of all of these different issues that we're trying to address. I think instead of being reactive we have to be proactive.Speaker 2 (21:41):You're listening to All Inclusive with Jay Ruderman. You can learn more, view the show notes and transcripts at rudermanfoundation.org/ allinclusive.Jay Ruderman (21:52):Please remember to subscribe, rate, and review us wherever you are listening. Brandon, I want to take you back through what was a pivotal moment in your life. In October of 2014, and you're in an airport about to go with your family to catch a flight to Miami, and a woman comes up to you and you have a talk for an hour and a half and the next thing you know you're giving a TEDx Talk. Tell me about what that experience was like.Brandon Farbstein (22:25):After that talk in front of about 1500 people, and I had these older gentlemen in suits coming up to me with tears in their eyes saying you unlocked something in me that I didn't know I had buried deep down. I was bullied when I was younger and I didn't realize how much of an effect I was still letting it have on me. And then I was having other people saying, "You completely changed the way that I'm going to see my kids." And then others saying, "I no longer want to kill myself anymore because of your story and your perspective."Brandon Farbstein (22:59):And the more that I started doing it, whether it was to fellow teenagers or it was to rotary clubs is where I started and doing a lot of local groups in Richmond where I grew up and just trying to get obviously as much experience but learning as much as I possibly could when I was starting out and seeing just how monumental it can be when you allow the truth to come out and you're yourself. And people really resonate with that in a very enormous way.Jay Ruderman (23:36):It'd amazing how one talk and then everything else that you've done so far can really impact people. And for anyone who hasn't seen it I urge them to google it and to check out your TEDx Talk before COVID-19 and how that's really changed our world, we had probably the lowest unemployment rate in the United States in quite a long time, I think it was under 4%. Yet people with disabilities routinely pulled at being unemployed over 70%, and there's a great disparity there. And you're talking about a big segment of our population that essentially is frozen out of the employment sector. And I'm wondering, because you speak to corporations and you speak to heads of businesses, and how do you make the case for a more inclusive workplace and community?Brandon Farbstein (24:43):I think so many business leaders especially are nervous to even start that movement and go in the right direction because they've never dealt with somebody with different abilities on their team, or they've ever had somebody that needs physical accommodations or something to help them read on their computer, whatever the thing is. And unfortunately that fear and just the overall ignorance of not dealing with it prevents a lot of action in a positive direction to be even had in the first place.Brandon Farbstein (25:20):MY challenge is, think about who can perform at the best ability with what you're looking to do. And for so many of these things, I'll use the creative field, for example. I know such a plethora of disabled artists and graphic designers and writers and people that are literally some of the most talented individuals that I know that just like you said have been really finding it difficult to get work and have people look beyond their disabilities, beyond their walker, or the wheelchair, or for somebody like me being short stature. And it has to be radically changed.Brandon Farbstein (26:09):With my own two eyes I've seen how incredible individuals with disabilities specifically are in so many of these roles that have never been filled by somebody with a disability, because obviously we have a different way of seeing the world through the experiences and the adversity and the hardships and also the innovation that I believe every single person with a disability has naturally, that we're born with. Because most of us are living in a world that wasn't built for us to accommodate us so we have to make sure we can accommodate ourselves.Brandon Farbstein (26:50):And I really would encourage leadership from the top down to do a deep look into who is on their team and where they could expand the trajectory of what they're trying to do by including folks like us who have so much value to bring to the table that, yes, have disabilities. I'm 3'9", I can't reach certain things. Other than that I'm Brandon, I'm somebody that has a bright mind and a big heart. And with anybody I just think it's so vital to not get lost in what accommodations they might need or how they're going to need to retrain their team while all of the minutia that gets in the way of productive action being taken.Jay Ruderman (27:50):I would just say for all those friends of yours who are talented, please send them my way because I'm always looking to engage with people like that that have ideas that are out of the box. I wanted to talk to you about a book you wrote called Ten Feet Tall: Step Into Your Truth and Change Your Freaking World. Tell us a little bit about the book, what it's about, how you went about writing it, and what impact it's had.Brandon Farbstein (28:23):Yeah, absolutely. When I was 18 I decided to release this book, Ten Feet Tall, and I didn't want it to just be about my story and the experiences that I've had and the lessons that I've learned, I absolutely wanted that to be an integral part of the book. But like I keep saying, the mission that I'm on is so much bigger than just me or just my story and I wanted to share so many of these powerful tools and really anecdotes that I've learned to dealing with life and dealing with adversity as a whole and negative experiences that we all suffer from.Brandon Farbstein (29:03):And it's through learning new things and strengthening our mindset as much as possible that we can not only overcome those things but turn something great out of them, not just for ourselves but for the world around us. And that's really why I think it's so vital to share your truth and to step into the realest version of who you are, not putting on a facade, not acting like everything is perfect, or you don't deal with any negativity. That's not who we are, we're human beings and I really believe if we can strip down all these complicated layers of what divide us, whether it's politics or different ways of thinking or just whatever it is.Brandon Farbstein (29:49):And it's a universal message in the book of living life on your own terms and elevating your mindset to become 10 feet tall and really be in the driver's seat of this life and the journey that you're going to have to not let autopilot take over when you're in a dark place, when you are depressed, or anxious, or fearful, but really recognizing the fact that we can't control what other people are doing. We can't control what's going on around us but we can always control what's going on in our own inner world.Brandon Farbstein (30:26):And Ten Feet Tall is a guide to how to do that both for anyone that is a teenager up until adults. I've had people in their 80s reach out to me saying how much they enjoyed the book and that it inspired them and changed the way that they look at things. And for me, it's such a gift to be able to give that to people and use what I've been given and my story as a whole to serve as a catalyst for strength and inspiration in others.Jay Ruderman (30:56):That's awesome. And I'm just... Really, your positivity has made quite an impact on me during this conversation. You are a role model to so many people out there. I know you have a big following and I'm just curious, do you have any role models? Are there any people that you look up to who are doing similar things or different things in society that you're like, "I love what they're doing and I want to follow their example?"Brandon Farbstein (31:31):I do, most definitely. When I was pretty early on in the speaking and the advocacy work that I started doing, it really was Tony Robbins that was my biggest hero and not just for what he had achieved but the impact that he's been able to have with his life on tens of millions of people all around the world. I still would love to emulate that and have that level of influence and inspiration and really just societal change coming from having the conversations that I do through my work.Brandon Farbstein (32:08):But now it's definitely shifted to having a lot more admiration for individuals that are on the front lines actually doing the work. I have so many activist friends that are incredible, really role models in themselves, raging from gun violence to mental health, to bullying prevention, to diversity and inclusion, and really every area of advocacy that is prominent right now. I to surround myself with as many of those folks as possible.Brandon Farbstein (32:43):And an example of somebody that is a true hero to me that I was able to spend some time with is Martin Luther King III. MLK's son is somebody that I've been able to develop a friendship with over the last few months. I met him in DC when he was there for MLK Day and I got to spend a couple of days with him and his family and just talk about strength and power. Wow, I am so moved truly by individuals like Martin, who are able to induce so much change that is intergenerational. It's intersocietal, it's affecting people not just from his own community but every walk of life is able to become better leaders and really just better people because of the work that these folks are doing.Jay Ruderman (33:41):Brandon, what's next for you? Have you thought about entering into the political sphere? Is there some other road that you'd like to go down? I mean, you're a young man, you've already done a major talk that's gotten a lot of attention and many other public speaking events, you've published a book. Where do you want to go from here?Brandon Farbstein (34:07):Really, I am at a point in my life right now where I feel like this is exactly where I need to be and in this role that I'm in it's also exactly what I need to be doing. But I absolutely want to expand as much as I can on this messaging and the overall presence that I am and the brand that I have as well that is beyond me. And I'm really trying to be a movement leader, not just an influencer and a thought leader, but I want to lead a movement of people, elevating empathy and having it start within themselves so that they're able to change the world around them.Brandon Farbstein (34:54):But truly if we don't focus on our own self-care and wellbeing, then how can we expect to be of service or of impact to the world as a whole. And so I'm on this mission of trying to make empathy so relevant for every walk of life that I speak to through my online content, my book, and obviously my speaking as well. But really, I think the next chapter for me is trying to go on the front lines with so many of these organizations that I've done work with. And whether it's a social media company or right now I'm working on a campaign with the United Nations and Warner Music around civic engagement and empathy.Brandon Farbstein (35:40):And really, it's just identifying how I can be a change maker. And I can offer a perspective to these companies and organizations that like we talked about in the beginning isn't just my message, diversity and inclusion, and empathy, and innovation, but it's also making sure that I'm representing Gen Z. I'm representing people with disabilities, I'm representing folks that may not have a voice that feel invisible, that feel small, whatever it is. And I have a big responsibility that I want to keep up and I want to make sure I'm doing as much as I possibly can.Brandon Farbstein (36:27):I'm excited to see where that leads. And in the next few months I am definitely looking forward to aligning with opportunities like that UN one and I'm about to start working on a large scale global campaign with one of the number one social media company's platforms in the world right now on inclusion that I'm really excited about. I just think that I want to continue on the path that I'm on right now but definitely when things shift and when I want to move in a different direction or I want to try new things I'm always open to that.Jay Ruderman (37:06):Well, I have no doubt you'll continue to go from success to success. I mean, one of the things that during our conversation has really come through is you meet so many people and it's all about the ego and I think it holds them back from being more powerful. If you look at people throughout history who've really changed our world from Martin Luther King, to Gandhi, to so many others, it wasn't about them it was about a cause. And they were able to obviously have a leadership role but it wasn't all about them, and I think you get that, you get that more than most people that I speak to. I wish you so much success. It's been such a pleasure speaking to you. I'm glad we were able to have this time and you gave us the time out of your schedule to speak to us and I really wish you all the best and hope we can keep in touch as things move forward.Brandon Farbstein (38:12):Definitely. Well, Jay, I just wanted to express how much adoration and respect I have for you and the Ruderman Family Foundation for the incredible work that you all continue to do, and I'm so excited to see the impact that has continued to be made on a daily basis by you and your team.Jay Ruderman (38:31):Thanks so much, I really appreciate it. And be well.Brandon Farbstein (38:34):Thanks, Jay.All-Inclusive is a production of the Ruderman Family Foundation. Our key mission is the full inclusion of people with disabilities in all aspects of society. You can find All-Inclusive on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Spotify and Stitcher. To view the show notes, transcripts, or to learn more, go to rudermanfoundation.org/allinclusive. Have an idea for a podcast? Be sure to tweet @JayRuderman.

Jay Ruderman (00:13):Hi, I'm Jay Ruderman and this is ALL INCLUSIVE, a podcast focused on inclusion, innovation and social justice.Julie Taymor (00:24):That scene of the Bunny Club is not in her book because even to this day, like in the movie, she hates it, because it became so much her emblem. It was too much. She's a beautiful woman, Gloria. So there was always the suspicion of other women. Was she getting a voice because she was so attractive. And what I adore about Gloria is that she did it with vengeance ultra, why shouldn't I wear mini skirts or have the streaks in my hair and be a smart woman and be able to be respected and be able to go out there and have my girlfriends and my compatriots?Jay Ruderman (01:05):In 1963, Gloria Steinem, then a young freelance journalist was sent by a magazine to investigate the not so glamorous working conditions at Hugh Hefner's Playboy Club. Gloria's expose of the sexist and underpaid working conditions of Bunny waitresses at the club gained her national attention and launched her career as a feminist activist. 50 years later in 2013, President Barack Obama presented her with the presidential medal of freedom. The highest civilian honor in the United States. A few years ago, filmmaker and Theater Hall of Famer, Julie Taymor most widely known for her immensely successful theater production of the Lion King, read Gloria's biography, My Life on the Road and was inspired to turn it into a movie. The Gloria's starring academy award winners, Julianne Moore, and Alicia Vikander tells Gloria's story, from her unusual upbringing to her unusual career.Jay Ruderman (02:11):So, Julie, thank you for joining us on ALL INCLUSIVE, it's my honor to have you as a guest, you're an extremely accomplished individual. And as I understand the first woman to win a Tony for best director for a musical, I happen to have seen your film, Glorias at the Sundance Film Festival in 2020, and was impressed with the film and the story, obviously the story that many people know of Gloria Steinem. But if I could start and ask you about the film Gloria's, which focuses on Gloria Steinem's life, what made you decide to turn her story into a feature film?Julie Taymor (02:53):Well, I had received the book, My Life on the Road, which is Gloria's autobiography to a degree, from a friend and I read it on a beach in Mexico. And I had known Gloria. I personally had known Gloria in New York City and I knew of her, but I really didn't know Gloria. We say, well, we know who Gloria Steinem is, but we don't really until you read that book and you go into what made her become the activist that she is. And I found her childhood, the traveling, the incessant traveling with her family, the fact that she didn't go to school until she was 11 or 12, that she had to bring up her own mother, that she then went on to India, which is very similar to my experience when I graduated from Oberlin College. She, when she graduated Smith, went to India on a fellowship and stayed for two years.Julie Taymor (03:47):I ended up staying in Indonesia for four years, but that she was taken with... This is where she was first ignited as an activist because she saw how Gandhi and the women of India would use the talking circle as a way to have a grassroots movement start. And then we follow her into all of her experience as a journalist and dealing with, of course the sexism or misogyny to a degree, but more the sexism and her really brilliant ability to connect with people. And I love the structure of her book, which was not a biography in a normal sense. It wasn't linear, it jumped around. And it was an impossible thing to think of as a movie. And that always excites me, anything that seems like, well, how am I going to find the through line here? How am I going to make it dramatic?Julie Taymor (04:42):And that's why it's called the Glorias because Gloria Steinem is a composite from all the women that she has met, whether it's Dorothy Pitman Hughes, Janell Monae plays that, or Bella Abzug, Bette Midler or, I mean there so many women, Black, native American, White, Indian all over the world that Gloria is, she's so able to communicate with, that she blends with them. And I found that to be an extremely challenging but exciting thought in this time, especially when we started this film, Trump was just elected and that was the opposite. This sort of top down, this is really about movement from the bottom up. And I love that.Jay Ruderman (05:32):Yeah. I read an article in which you talked about... I mean, the film has different variations of Gloria, played by different actresses at different points in her life, essentially talking to each other. And I read that you had a conversation with Gloria Steinem explaining it. And I think her response was, "Well, how did you know?"Julie Taymor (05:53):Exactly.Jay Ruderman (05:54):That I actually have this conversations with myself as a person at different times in my life. And did that surprise you that the film really resonated with her on a personal level?Julie Taymor (06:11):Well, it pleased me more than surprised me, I had a connection with her and it's, I don't mean something that I was conscious of, but obviously there is in any artist's work, there's a level of unconscious that we operate on. And the reason that I started with this idea of the four Glorias, we have a six-year-old a twelve-year-old, Alicia Vikander plays 20 to 40 Julianne Moore 40 to 80. And then actually the real Gloria is a part of the film. Well, first of all, it's 80 years of her life. So there isn't going to be one actress, boom, right there, impossible. But this book was written in the first person. So she was always throughout the book, questioning her motives, questioning the events, questioning what she should have done. And I just took that literally and thought, "Well, she is really talking to herself, so why not put that right there, up on the screen, let her talk to herself, let her question, let her cajole, let her criticize."Julie Taymor (07:15):So the bus out of time, which is what I like to call the ideograph of the whole thing, the Greyhound bus is an image in America of forever traveling. And anybody can travel on that bus, very few high class people, or rich people will do it, but mostly it's the bus that takes you to freedom, it's the bus that takes you to a match on Washington, it's the bus that takes you to work, it's the bus that takes you on a journey. So I have these various Gloria's at different ages on the bus, sitting down next to each other and say, "Why didn't you say that to your mother? Why didn't you tell her that you should have gone out and left our father and gone to New York and become a writer." And then the other one says, "Because if I had, she would have said to me, well, then I never would have had you."Julie Taymor (08:10):Now I found that discussion in the book, but I put it into a physicalization, a dramatic, theatrical, cinematic theatrical version in the film, as opposed to a voiceover, the ubiquitous voiceover. I didn't want to do that, hearing her speak unconnected to a physical person. And by having them talk to each other, they could then also, outside of this surreal bus out of time, which was in black and white and kept, it was the glue that kept all of these various scenes. There's lots of scenes all over, we take place in about 50 different locations, all across America and India and in the imagination, in the dreams. So the bus out of time, this allows them to be a constant in the film so that we're not feeling like the jumping around is confusing. There is this glue.Julie Taymor (09:08):And finally, the bus takes us to Washington DC to the women's match, right after the inauguration of Trump, which was one of the biggest matches in the history of the world. And it was all over the world. And the movie ends with, we the people which seem to be very appropriate for our time when we really did get rid of Trump for the time being, let's put it that way. The reason my face looks glum is because it just doesn't seem like it's going to last.Jay Ruderman (09:38):Now, Gloria dedicated her biography, My Life on the Road to a physician who authorized what was then an illegal abortion when she was 22 years old. Can you talk about the impact that, that had on Gloria's decision to become an activist?Julie Taymor (09:57):Well, yes. I think that to dedicate your book to what we would say, the abortionist, although he's not, he's what you said. He was the one who, in Great Britain on her way to India as a 21 year old woman is amazing. And what she says in the book is he asked her to promise her three things, I think two or three things, if I can remember. One that she will not reveal his name. Now, she didn't reveal it until after he passed away. Number two, that she would, or the main thing that she would promise to do what she wanted to do in her life. That was the main thing. To be basically what she needed to be in her life. And that gave her this freedom, this incredible freedom to become the woman that she became. If she had gone into a traditional marriage and had a child at that age, she wouldn't have been able to become the activist, the times were not.Julie Taymor (10:56):I think women now can, they can do both, but there is always a sacrifice when women have children and then also have to go out and become full-time whatever, working in the workplace or an activist. And I think that with Gloria, her life, with her parents, where her mother and father separated, she went to live with her mother at age, I don't exactly remember the dates, but probably around 10 or 11 years old, and her mother was falling apart mentally. And so Gloria had already been a mother, she'd already experienced what it was to take care of, not a child, but to take care of fully, full responsibility at such a young age. So she didn't feel that desire and need to be a literal mother. She became the mother of a movement. She became the mother to many other young women guiding them. And I think that that's an astounding freedom.Julie Taymor (11:52):And I went through too, in my early formation as an artist, went through the same experience in Indonesia and made a decision that allowed me to fulfill my life in a different way than the ordinary, not ordinary, but the more common or usual way of becoming a mother and a wife.Jay Ruderman (12:16):I want to go back to Gloria Steinem and something that launched her as a feminist in the expose she did on the Playboy Clubs and being photographed and in a bunny suit. How did that impact her perception among the feminist community at the time?Julie Taymor (12:37):Well, that scene of the Bunny Club is not in her book. And I asked her and I said, look, because even to this day, like in the movie, she hates it. Because it became so much her emblem, it was too much. She's a beautiful woman, Gloria, so there was always the suspicion of other women. Was she getting a voice because she was so attractive? And what I adore about Gloria is that she did it with vengeance ultra, why shouldn't I wear mini skirts or have the streaks in my hair and be a smart woman and be able to be respected and be able to go out there and have my girlfriends and my compatriots? So she was testing those waters because there was a cliche that feminists were ugly or lesbian ugly, or all of these horrible things that they would throw into male haters and all, and Gloria was absolutely, she had many boyfriends. She loved men, she loved good men and she had many good male friends. So she was really challenging, what does a feminist mean?Julie Taymor (13:43):And I think many women got on the boat with her and then other women were suspicious and competitive and would play it against each other, women were played against each other, even including Phyllis Schlafly. I mean, Gloria said publicly in an article that she wrote for the LA Times, that Phyllis Schlafly was just used. She wasn't really her movement. She was used by them, the insurance companies. And again, I'm not the person to represent that argument, but it was pitting women, which we still do in TV. That's why these shows that whether they're, FX or whatever, have Mommie Dearest pitted against the Joan Crawford against Betty Davis and the cat fight, the eternal cat fight. That's what the American, what was the thing that was with Phyllis Schlafly was not accurate-Jay Ruderman (14:38):Mrs. America.Julie Taymor (14:39):Yeah. It was not accurate to what I have read and what Gloria has told me. And Gloria is the living feminist in that group and says it was absolutely not accurate. And it really made its drama on the drama between women, which it made up to a degree, much too much. And what I wanted to show in the Glorias is the love affair, not sexual, but the love and support that these women have for each other and for all women. So you see that Ms. Magazine scene, where they're all there together, having a great time coming up with the ideas for the articles, speaking their passions about all kinds of things. And then the women's conference where you had three first ladies up there on the stage, whether they were Republican or Democrat or whatever, up there, talking about the important issues that are for not just women, but for men. We look at that 20,000 people in that incredible Houston arena talking about, back there in 1977, about immigration and families. I mean the issues and homosexuality and all of these things that were so important and how they were together.Julie Taymor (15:52):This fight just doesn't seem to end whether it's about freedom of choice, all of these things. I think that her book and this film really touches on all these various aspects, but one of the biggest is women supporting women.Jay Ruderman (16:10):I think one of the things the movie does very well, which is based on what happened in reality is to focus on the intersectionality issues and how the feminist movement worked really hard to ensure diversity during the birth of the movement.Julie Taymor (16:27):Well, that's the other thing that Mrs. America got wrong. I mean, anybody Gloria Steinem from the very early age was traveling across racial borders and her best friends, or people that she was dealing with were not little White girls, as you see in the film. And then obviously her experience in India and then always, and you saw this, she went out with African-American women as her speaking partners, because together they could reach a wider audience. And Gloria was not, I mean, yes, there were in the early women's movements, as we saw in the suffrage movement where Black women were at the lead of a lot of this, seriously at the lead, but they were denied equal opportunity with their White female partners. Many of the White female leaders felt that they would not get ahead if they were mixed racially, it's a terrible, absolutely terrible history. But that was more back in the 20s, 30s than in the time, in the second wave of feminism, which is what this movie is about.Julie Taymor (17:33):And these women were incredibly, whether it was Shirley Chisholm or many of them were at the forefront of not just Black movements but feminist movements. And I wanted to have that Flo Kennedy is one of the great characters in our film, Lorraine Tucson's, genius. And Flo and Gloria after Dorothy Pittman, couldn't be on the circuit any longer. Flo was her major partner, speaking partner, and a better speaking partner, frankly, and a tremendous presence of lawyer, a huge, just full of extraordinary humor edge like Lenny Bruce she's just genius. So we're very excited that we introduced them. Wilma Mankiller the native American was the first female chief of the Cherokee nation. She was Gloria's best friend for years and years. And you have these scenes where she opened Gloria up to understanding that it was the native Americans who taught Benjamin Franklin about democracy, who were there.Julie Taymor (18:35):And I really, when I read this book and learned about all these extraordinary women who were so important to Gloria's life, I went, oh my God, that's the Glorias. I mean, it's not that they're Gloria Steinem, but that Gloria is them. That they are why she is who she is. And as you said, this intersectionality of the film is the most important thing about it. I think that there were these voices that Gloria really heard and expressed what she felt about life as well.Jay Ruderman (19:05):I think the actresses in the film, Bette Midler and Julianne Moore and Janell Monae and so many others, how did this story, I mean, obviously they're actors and they're used to playing roles, but it had to resonate with them on a personal level also, did you experience that?Julie Taymor (19:26):Oh, absolutely. I mean, Julianne Moore signed on before we had a screenplay, she was in Washington. She believes she's an activist, she's involved with gun laws and all kinds of things. So totally. And she was thrilled to finally meet Gloria, go to her apartment. We sat down in my apartment, Alicia, Julianne, Gloria, myself, and they were allowed to ask her anything. She brought them to her apartment, showed her her jewelry, her clothes, her posters, things that she loves. And Alicia was the same. Alicia was, she's Swedish and I had to take a chance that she would be able to nail Gloria's accent, not just an American, because she'd never played a large full-out American role. Her English is fluent, but it's accented. And so we had dialect coaches that work with both women because Gloria has, as she says, this flat Toledo, Ohio accent, but this meant a lot to Alicia as well, her mother is an activist or a feminist.Julie Taymor (20:26):And so they were both drawn to this, not just because they loved the book that they read, but the issues were of paramount importance to them. And Janell Monae was also at the woman's match. I mean, she's a very important activist and I knew this would resonate with her. I wish she could put a bit more in the film, but she's still where she, and what she does is brilliant and same with Lorraine Tucson, Bette Midler. I mean, Bette Midler, sang, was the entertainment at Gloria Steinem's 50th birthday party. So she goes way back. And then Lorraine didn't know who Flo Kennedy was. And has really thanked us for turning her on to the power of this extraordinary woman. Kimberly Guerrero, who played Wilma Mankiller is an activist. She's, I think she's, I'm not sure what she is. She's Cherokee or Osage, maybe she's Osage, because I think she's from Oklahoma, but she had played Wilma Mankiller in another movie that Wilma's husband, Charlie Soap had directed, both of them. The wonderful actor who played the husband, they had both played Wilma and Charlie at younger ages.Julie Taymor (21:45):And I thought they were wonderful in his film, so I asked them, which was great because they're not huge parts, but they'd already lived that experience of living the younger Charlie and Wilma, so that they were able to bring that to our film.Jay Ruderman (22:01):I want to touch on one thing that you brought up before about Gloria's father and her relationship with her father who was a salesman and had left the family when, I think you said she was 10 years old. He abandoned her yet Gloria has said that he helped shape and encourage her activism. Can you maybe elaborate on that?Julie Taymor (22:25):Well, I think that he always supported her to make her own decisions and to be the woman or the young female woman that she wanted to be. He never treated her as a child. And I think that theirs was a friendship like in the car when you see them traveling from California to New York there was a real comradery. And he had a freedom about him. He never wore a hat, as she said, he never had a job. His was, travel is the best education. So she saw that he was a sad sack in a certain way and he failed as a husband, but as an individual and with an incredible sense of humor and freedom, he inspired her. When she said, "Pap, I'm not getting married." And she thought that he would be disappointed, he was thrilled. He said, "Oh, you can get married anytime."Julie Taymor (23:24):The fact that she was going to go off to India, his thing was, "India, wow, that's fantastic. When would you have an opportunity to do that?" So it wasn't specifically that he encouraged her activism no, I don't think so. I think that his inspiration of do what your heart and your mind says to do, go in that direction. That's what inspired her. And seeing her mother unfulfilled as a result of a husband who did not let her mother become the full woman that she wanted to be. I mean, it's ironic there. So it's complicated, the mother and father relationship, and both of them added to the reason that Gloria became the activist that she is.Jay Ruderman (24:07):So watching the movie at Sundance, at the end, when Gloria appears as herself was such an emotional moment for the audience. After seeing the film and so many different actresses portraying her, and then to see her herself, you talked a little bit about it, but what was it like working with her?Julie Taymor (24:31):Oh, well, I mean, working with her starts years before I read her book, she's just a generous human being in every way, just easy, regular and generous. And then she's a star. But working with her on this, she wanted me to do, she loved my work, she adored Across the Universe and Frida and the Lion King. And she just basically said, "This is yours. I don't know how the hell you're going to make this book into a movie, but if you want to do it, you're the only person I want to do it." She understood that I was going to be looking for multiple levels of reality because there are also these moments that are not part of her book, like the big tornado sequence, which takes a while to describe, or the running on the conveyor belt, which I took from another book of hers that described her midlife crisis, as you would say, where she felt that she couldn't get off the running machine.Julie Taymor (25:29):And so I took it literally and put her on a treadmill, that her life was on a treadmill. So she was completely, absolutely open to me interpreting her book the way that I wanted. And as you said, when I had the idea to have the multiple Glorias speaking to each other, that just blew her mind. I mean, she just loved the idea of the bus out of time.Jay Ruderman (25:54):Well, the movie is such an important, first of all, the feminist movement was such an important movement in terms of American history and is continuing and the movie's done so creatively. I know that COVID changed plans for Glorias along with many movies, but have enough people seen it, is it getting out there?Julie Taymor (26:20):I don't know. We don't know how to judge who watches movies on Amazon because it wasn't an Amazon original, it didn't get advertisement. And because it didn't go into the movie theaters, our film distributors, didn't put any money into it. So, it's lack of presence in the academy season has to do with money. They didn't have the money to do what you have to do. You have to buy those awards, you have to spend. I don't think people understand this, but we looked into it, it's at least $200,000 you have to put into wanting your film to get that kind of recognition. And because it wasn't in movie theaters, it wasn't worth it to try and raise that money for the film distributors. And watch when Amazon puts their money into or puts their advertising, it's Amazon originals. We were supposed to be in movie theaters first and then go on streaming, not the other way around. So has it been out there enough? No, I don't think Gloria and my producers and I feel in any way, has it gotten out in the way it should.Jay Ruderman (27:29):Will it, post COVID start appearing in theaters?Julie Taymor (27:34):No, it costs money. I can't imagine, I think it's there and accessible for anybody who wants to have it and show screenings or get it, but is it going to be put out now? I doubt it, it's just not the way the American marketplace works. I think even as it goes around the world and it's being put on television, streaming in the other countries and not in the movie theaters yet, because it requires so much money to advertise films. Even if it's something like Nomadland, it had to go to the festivals, the festival route is what brought Nomadland to the attention that it got finally in the United States, it went from one festival to another and garnered many awards. And it was one star. One thing that's tricky about promoting a film that's multiple people is that the lead actress was shared between Julianne and Alicia. And that's tough. It wasn't like we could take one, we couldn't.Julie Taymor (28:39):It's sort of what happened to the fabulous movie Judas and the Black Messiah. They didn't know who was the lead. And so they split the supporting actor. These guys were lead actors. The two of them were lead actors, but we don't have a method for sharing. And therefore it becomes hard, it just becomes hard. And also because we came out so early, the distributors wanted us to wait, but Gloria and all of us felt we have to be used, maybe it was helpful, we don't know, but we have to be used prior to the election. We just didn't feel like we could take that film and wait until, it was too dangerous, until after the most recent election. Will it come in movie theaters? You can help with that. Everybody who's seen it can say bring it to my local movie theater when people go back. But it's a marketing issue.Jay Ruderman (29:33):Well, I didn't know. I mean, we are an activist in the entertainment world, but we are not of the entertainment world. I wish we had had a conversation because I didn't know. I mean, for that amount of money, it would have been worth investing. It's such an impactful movie and getting it more attention to potentially position it in the awards. But I hope a lot of people see it. I think it's, as I said, a very important part of American history that needs to be told and is told very well, and I really enjoyed it, and I've enjoyed our conversation. I really appreciate the time that you've given me an all inclusive. Well, thank you so much.Julie Taymor (30:22):You're very welcome. Thank you.Announcer (30:27):ALL INCLUSIVE is a production of the Ruderman Family Foundation. Our key mission is the full inclusion of people with disabilities in all aspects of society. You can find ALL INCLUSIVE on Apple podcasts, Google Play, Spotify, and Stitcher. To view the show notes, transcripts, or to learn more, go to rudermanfoundation.org.Have an idea for a podcast? Be sure to tweet @JayRuderman.

Speaker 1 (00:03):All Inclusive, a podcast on inclusion, innovation, and social justice with Jay Ruderman.Jay Ruderman (00:13):Hi, I'm Jay Ruderman and this is All Inclusive, a podcast focused on inclusion, innovation, and social justice.Moran Samuel (00:24):So my first, psychological reaction, mental reaction was, well life is over, everything I was, was related to sports so for me life was over, but soon enough and I'm so lucky that I've been an athlete all my life because the tools I was carrying around with me helped a lot when I had to recover when I had to do my first steps.Jay Ruderman (00:58):In 2006, Moran Samuel, a gifted young athlete woke up literally into a new reality. During the night she suffered a sudden spinal stroke, which left her paralyzed from the chest down, 10 years later she was holding a bronze medal in a 2016 Rio Paralympics. So I would like to start by focusing our conversation on the benefits and also the challenges that people in sports with disabilities face, before we get to all of that, I want to familiarize our listeners with your own personal story. So can you tell us what your life was like before you suffered a spinal stroke?Moran Samuel (01:48):So I grew up as a basketball player. I grew up in a very small town in the north part of Israel and I fell in love in basketball, when I was nine years old. By the age of 16, I already represented Israel in the youth national team. I served the army in a special program for elite athletes, I coached basketball and my life was pretty much all about being the best basketball player could be playing division one league here in Israel, preparing myself to a future of sports. At the time I was 24 years old and at the time I was already a student, so my life was right on track and just one morning, just like that, everything completely changed.Moran Samuel (02:45):It was a Thursday, the night before I was coaching at the afternoon, then later that night I played basketball, I think I came home half past 10:00 PM and everything felt normal, I was completely fine. I woke up that Thursday and I was supposed to go to my parents' house for the weekend and I had a very severe back pain. Something I've never felt before, it was really strange, it wasn't like a muscle strain or I don't know. It was really unique pain that I've never felt before. In a few, I think it was about 20 to half an hour, I started to have some difficulties with breathing and that's when I realized something bad is happening, but I couldn't point my finger at something specific because I was walking, I was having my coffee, I was even doing my laundry, but it became worse.Moran Samuel (03:50):There was a point where I realized that it's not going well and I decided to call an ambulance and by the time they arrived, I couldn't get out of bed by myself. When they were taking me to the hospital on the way to the hospital, I couldn't move my legs anymore and I realized I'm completely paralyzed. When I'm getting to the hospital, after a few checks, exams, they realize it's a neurological problem, but they couldn't get the source of it and I did an MRI and at the time MRIs were not as common as today. Not everybody could actually translate what it says. So it took some time, it took a few hours to find the right doctor to analyze my MRI and to understand that something is blocking the oxygen supply to the central nervous system and that I need a surgery and I'm going into surgery in that afternoon.Moran Samuel (04:53):Only when I woke up the next morning, they could explain what it was and they explained that I suffered a really rare condition called spinal stroke. There was a defect in one of the blood vessels and that's it, it was a ticking bomb in my body and there was no way to discover it. There was no way to prevent it. So you cannot discover it in just a regular normal checks that you do when you go to your doctor or to your sport doctor. It's really rare.Jay Ruderman (05:24):I guess I have two questions. What was your immediate, psychological, emotional reaction to this and after you were in the hospital and recovering, and now living a new life physically, how did you emotionally adapt to that?Moran Samuel (05:57):So my first psychological reaction, mental reaction was, well life is over, everything I knew was sports, the way I define myself was through sport, I always say that if you have met me when I was 16 and open up my chest, you wouldn't find an anatomical heart. My heart was round and orange it had stripe and it was bouncing up and down in my chest. So everything I was, was related to sports or for me life was over, but soon enough and I'm so lucky that I've been an athlete all my life because the tools I was carrying around with me helped a lot when I had to recover when I had to do my first steps in order to heal, to overcome. I think that the first mental step was to change the way that I was talking to myself, not saying life is over, but saying life as I knew it might be over, but I'm still here.Moran Samuel (07:13):I have something to give and believe me, I didn't have big dreams then, I didn't even think about going back to sport or being a Paralympian. I really wanted to do just the little things of life. Just be able to wake up in the morning and be independent and be able to get out of the hospital and do something with my life but no big dreams. I didn't have any big goals, but I do believe that the small ones are the one that keeps you going and I made small wins each and every day. I can give you a nice example that I like giving from basketball, because this is my world. So if you take a really close, tight basketball game, I mean 68-66, something like that, 25 seconds to the end of the game, and someone is giving you the best pass you can ever get.Moran Samuel (08:12):And you get to the ring with a layup that you probably was able to do like 10,000 times in your life and then the ball goes out and there's maybe another 15 seconds on the clock and you know you've missed the most important shot of the game. So what is the next fastest thing you need to do? What would you say Jay? What is the first thing you need to do the fastest thing you need to do after you missed the most important shot of the game and there are only 15 seconds on the shot clock?Jay Ruderman (08:54):Try to get the rebound.Moran Samuel (08:56):This is the right answer. You need to get the ball back but how do you do it? In order to do it you need to be able to switch. You need to be able mentally to forget it just happened and to put it behind you because it's not going to help you to do the next best step or the next best action you can do. As a sport person, as an athlete, I've mastered that, I switched so fast, I know how to mentally change my reaction to whatever happens to me in the basketball court and when I was lying in bed, I understood that this is exactly what I need to do. I cannot change the fact that I just missed that shot, but the fastest I will be able to overcome, the fastest I will be able to get back on the ground and try to get the ball then maybe I can help the team to win and maybe I will be able to help myself overcome or deal with it the best way I can.Moran Samuel (10:10):So I think that I had a lot of support, I have an amazing parents and family, my friends from university were visiting me on a regular basis, they even bought me a laptop so I can be online with them. It's cool and everything, but there are moments in your life that you need to take the next best step, you need to push yourself forward because if you don't believe that you own your own strength, it doesn't matter how much support and help you have from the people around you. It helps and it's important, but you have to believe that you can do it.Jay Ruderman (10:50):So it reminds me and I've read quite a bit about professional athletes and how they're able to not dwell on the past and go forward and there's a scene in a movie called Fever Pitch, which was done by friends of mine, Peter and Bobby Farrelly, which is about the Boston Red Sox, a baseball team. There's a scene in it where the team has lost three in a row, in a four playoff series and a bunch of the players are sitting around having a meal and they're joking and they're talking and there's a group of fans sitting by them and they're drinking their beers and crying and they're like, how can these players go on and just act like it's no big deal when they're almost out and were so devastated.Jay Ruderman (11:51):Jimmy Fallon stars in the movie and he's like, they have it right, they understand life, that things happen, especially in sports and the best athletes I think can compartmentalize and go on to the next thing. I think that it's one thing to miss a shot or miss a game, or lose a playoff. It's another thing to, physically lose part of your body that was so much part of your identity, so for that, that's an extraordinary story. As I understand, you decided to return to sports after your injury. So can you just talk about like, what was involved in that decision to say, I'm going to get back into sports. , I am now paralyzed from the waist down, but I want to be an athlete.Moran Samuel (12:47):So actually I couldn't go back to sport right ahead. I felt that if I cannot play as I played before, I don't want to play at all. It was that ball in my chest that just all the air went out and I never thought anything can make me feel like I felt being an asset. So I went back to school, I finished my bachelor in physical therapy and I did a master in child development and I started working with infant and children with disabilities and I said, this is the best way I can take something really bad that happened to me, but do something good with it. I wanted to keep the chapter of being an athlete somewhere in my past but I guess that it was meant to be.Moran Samuel (13:48):After three years of trying to avoid anything related to sport or to basketball, I was getting a phone call that they are rebuilding their women national team in wheelchair basketball in Israel. We didn't have a team since the nineties, it was 2009 and I felt like faith is calling me. I don't know how to explain, I was wearing the Israeli flag on my uniform since I was 16 and suddenly the team is calling me again, even though it's in wheelchair basketball. There's a saying in basketball that you always miss 100% of the shots you don't take, so I had to take that shot.Moran Samuel (14:37):It was the day of my birthday, where I decided to go to the first session and it was a Saturday night, I was driving two hours from my house at the north, in Haifa [foreign language 00:14:52], in the center of Israel and when I got to the basketball court, I just fell in love again. It was like watching a Hollywood movie in slow motion reaction and then music in the background, really emotional and everything I knew was there. It was the ball in the basket and the court and the friends that I met there and just being able not to feel my disability. I realized in time that, that's my way to take the dis out of disability by playing sport and it was amazing.Jay Ruderman (15:47):So how long did it take you to learn to be a wheelchair basketball player? I mean, you obviously were a top flight basketball player, but to sit in a wheelchair and to play in a wheelchair, how long did it take you to become a top athlete as a wheelchair basketball player?Moran Samuel (16:08):Actually, I did it quite fast, like you said, I came with the skills I just needed to adopt and by the first year of playing wheelchair basketball, I was already invited to join the men team of [inaudible 00:16:27] , which played the first league in Israel. By my second year, I was already in the open five of my team. I represented Israel in two European championship, both of them I was chosen to be one of the all-star players of the tournament, even though we finished last as a team. So in the beginning, it was really hard and the ball was going everywhere. It was really hard to shoot from the outside because you are sitting and suddenly you need to use only your upper body and you sit so low. So it took a while but I did it fast because I came with the background and when you meet former basketball players that go into wheelchair basketball, usually they adapt really fast.Jay Ruderman (17:21):So let me ask you, you got into rowing and maybe you can talk a little bit about how you transitioned, not completely transitioned, because you're still a basketball player, but how you went from basketball to rowing?Moran Samuel (17:34):Going back to basketball was a big thing for me, but it also made me think that I want to get to the Paralympic games. I started dreaming big dreams about sports again, as I did when I was a young athletes, dreaming about the WNBA or representing Israel in the Olympic games. So suddenly I can feel that that the dream is still there, but my team wasn't good enough, the Israeli national team wasn't good enough, we were the last in Europe. So thinking about paralympic games was an impossible dream, let's say, but thinking about individual sport was actually the route to try and get to the paralympic games and the paralympic committee in Israel, they recommended rowing or power rowing based on my athletic abilities, my height and they offered rowing and even though I've never rode in my life, I didn't even like any water sport before. I had a dream and I decided that I will at least try.Moran Samuel (18:53):It was very hard because I'm coming from a team sport, where everybody are dependent on everybody else. Actually I fell in love in that feeling that everything I do comes back to me, all the effort that I give goes in the boat and I'm not depending on anyone else to succeed or not. That was a new feeling but a good feeling and then I think it was after three or four months in the boat. When we were recording my times and we saw that I can be maybe six in the world after three months only and we knew it's the right place for me. I represented Israel in the 2012 Paralympic games in London and rowing is an amazing sport, have you ever rode? I mean maybe in school, have you ever rode?Jay Ruderman (19:50):I've never rode athletically. I I've rode in a kayak, but I can't compare it to your success.Moran Samuel (20:00):No but I mean, it's that the connection with the water, the outdoor sport, the wind, there are really moments where you are some kind of meditation inside the sport and it's amazing. It was for me like running again and it was the first time I was doing a sport that is out of the wheelchair, that was very special. Suddenly I can get out of my wheelchair and in getting the boats and it's freedom, it's really freedom.Jay Ruderman (20:38):You've had many successes. I mean, in London you mentioned in 2012, finishing fifth in the Paralympic games by 2015, you had won a world championship and in 2016 in the Rio Paralympics, you won the bronze medal. There's an article that I pulled up from USA today, that's written by someone who I know his name is Charles Katherine, I don't know if you've seen this article. The title of the piece in USA today is why separate Paralympics should end and be unified with the Olympic games should begin? So you're a rower, you're not using a wheelchair, you're in a boat, what do you think? Should you compete against Olympians as a rower?Moran Samuel (21:35):I can't, it's an unfair fight because even though I'm out of my wheelchair and in a boat and specifically in rowing, the whole movement comes and starts from the strength of the legs, you are pushing really hard with the legs, and then you're adding the upper body. So actually in my category, it will never be a fair play. It's like in judo or in boxing where you have weight categories, so putting me competing against a one of the top rowers in the world, able body rowers is like boxing, I don't know, 50 kilograms against 100 kilograms or something like that.Moran Samuel (22:26):It's just an unfair fight but I think that there are many reasons to join Olympic and Paralympic games, we're talking about inclusion so it will be amazing that let's say it will be an alternating race. So you will have the women single in the able-bodied category, and then the women single in the pair category and you have the men single, and you will alternate the competition. I think that will expose the Paralympic sport to so many audience and it will really put on the same level with the same Olympic and Paralympic games.Jay Ruderman (23:16):That's an important idea because I remember in the last Olympics, the amount of money and attention and media that's focused on the Olympics far outweighs the Paralympics and I know our foundation was very involved with group of young activists to approach the US Olympic committee and talk about the disparity in payment for metals that Olympians were getting as opposed to Paralympians and the victory was that the US Olympic committee decided to have metal pay parody for both the Paralympians and Olympians, which was a huge step. I think that that being on the same stage would do a lot to move towards inclusion.Moran Samuel (24:10):Yes, it will and there are many excuses why not to do it and I've been on many discussions of why is not the right idea. I think there are even Paralympians that think that we need to have our separate games because we need different conditions and we need accessibility and so on and so forth. I say, okay but this is the world, the world needs to be accessible, I don't like to talk about equality. I like to talk about equal opportunities because of course, if there are stairs, you will be able to go up the stairs and I will not be able to go up the stairs. We don't need equality, we don't need exactly the same conditions, we need the same opportunities. We need the same doors to be open for everybody and if the same doors are open for everybody, then the best people who are... if it's in jobs or in school or in entertainment, or you're doing an amazing job in Hollywood, so if the door is open, then everybody can just get inside and try.Moran Samuel (25:31):I think that's the only way. If we push ourselves forward, if we speak out, if we reach out, we don't sit on the side and say, oh but we don't get this and we don't get that and no one sees us. No, I don't care about that, I care about actions, I care about coming forward and speaking out and showing that we care, showing that we want, sometimes no one asked you.Jay Ruderman (26:02):So let me ask you about being a competitive athlete, as opposed to just being an athlete for fun which most of us are, what are the benefits of being a competitive athlete, both just as a human being and as a person with disabilities?Moran Samuel (26:26):So as a human being, I think first of all, the mental strength, not just a physical strength, the mental strength you get from being an athlete, your ability to manage your time, your ability to focus. When they try to help people and deal with anxiety and depression and difficulties in your everyday life, they try to teach you how to focus, how to be in the moment, not thinking about the past, not thinking about the future and this is something professional athletes must know how to do. For people with disabilities I think that there are two main things that sport gives you, first of all as I said, it takes the dis of disability just makes you feel able.Moran Samuel (27:22):It makes you feel that you can, especially when it happens to you in the middle of your life there is a big list of what I could do in the past, but will never be able to do again and in order to feel better about the past, feel better about what you cannot do anymore, or even just throw away this list. You need to build a new list of what I can do and focus on that and sport gives you the feeling that you can makes you meet with other people with disabilities, that sport gives their life new meaning and it's amazing. The second thing is just, I think making you feel like you're like everybody else.Jay Ruderman (28:27):What tips would you give to young people with disabilities who are looking to go a route like you went through, what's your advice?Moran Samuel (28:39):So first of all, find a sport that you love, that you're connected to because it's really hard, there are so many hours to put in, so you need to love it and if you're doing a sport that you don't feel passionate about, you will not be able to get to the highest level. So you have to be passionate about it and it's true even if you don't want to be an athlete, if you want to be a singer or if you want to be an engineer or if you want to be an astronaut, you need to be passionate about your dreams and it needs to come from you. Sometimes our parents can push us, sometimes our teachers can push us or coaches around us say, oh you need to do this or that, but you need to look in the mirror and say, I do what I love and that's why I do it.Moran Samuel (29:32):So that's the first thing that I think is very important. Then you need to understand that most journeys in life, especially for our professional athletes, it's not a 100 meter sprint. Sometimes it's a marathon, sometimes it's climbing the Everest, sometimes it's a long journey and every step you take takes you forward. You might fall, but you need to learn how to get back on the court as fast as you can. I always say that if you look at an obstacle as an obstacle, it will knock you down, if you look at an obstacle as a challenge, you will do your best to overcome. You will do your maximum and it's up to us. Challenges are there, things go wrong, but if we are creative, if you're flexible, if we know how to react, then we can always turn those obstacles into challenges.Jay Ruderman (30:36):What do you feel are the unique challenges facing people with disabilities, both in sports and just in general physical activity, moving throughout society and how can we do a better job as a society to integrate people with disabilities in every aspect of life?Moran Samuel (30:55):I think that, that's the first problem around the world is access to sport activities for children with disabilities. Let's say that in the same house, there are two brothers, they are even twins and one was born with a disability and the other was born without and they get to the age where they want to play sport. The opportunities for one are much higher than the opportunities to the other and that's a problem as I see it. I think that especially in young age, it should be integrated, there are so many sports that it doesn't matter, specifically individual sport, like swimming, like tennis, like rowing, shouldn't be a problem to have in one team children with and without disabilities, you just need to adapt the training, that's it but everybody can use the same facilities, the same community center, it's not happening enough.Moran Samuel (32:03):There are still barriers that I don't understand, coaches that are afraid of having children with disabilities in their team, even though it's not a competitive team yet, stuff like that. We need to educate our sport teacher, how do you call it, physical education teacher?Jay Ruderman (32:25):Yes.Moran Samuel (32:26):Yeah we need to educate them better about disabilities, about opportunities and how to adapt their sport and lessons to everybody. Today we seen schools in Israel that children with disabilities, when there is the physical education period in the day, they sit in class doing something else, that's wrong. I think it starts in schools education and opportunities around your neighborhood for you to play sport and that's a challenge for children with disabilities.Jay Ruderman (33:11):Well Moran it's been a pleasure speaking to you and I really enjoyed our time together. I want to wish you a lot of success in Italy and then again in Tokyo. I'll be watching the news and looking forward to your success. So thank you so much and thank you for spending time with us today.Moran Samuel (33:32):Thank you, Jay. Thank you for hosting me.Speaker 1 (33:39):All Inclusive is a production of the Ruderman family foundation. Our key mission is the full inclusion of people with disabilities in all aspects of society. You can find All Inclusive on Apple podcasts, Google Play, Spotify, and Stitcher. Have an idea for a podcast? Be sure to tweet @JayRuderman!

Jay (00:13):Hi, I'm Jay Ruderman, and this is All Inclusive. A podcast focused on inclusion, innovation, and social justice.Ruth B. Ginsburg (00:25):I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.Speaker 1 (00:41):We welcome today Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg.Speaker 2 (00:46):She's become such an icon.Speaker 3 (00:48):You mind signing this copy.Ruth B. Ginsburg (00:49):I am 84 years old, and everyone wants to take a picture with me. A Notorious RGB. Yeah.Speaker 4 (00:56):When you come right down to it, the closest thing to a superhero I know.Speaker 5 (01:01):Ruth Bader Ginsburg changed the way the world is for American women.Jay (01:07):Finding success as a film director is never easy, and it is probably twice as difficult for creators of documentary films. Yet RBG, a documentary about the life and work of Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg was an extraordinary success. It was one of the highest-grossing independent films of 2018 and holds an approval rating of 94% on Rotten Tomatoes, a popular review aggregation website for film and television. RBGs directors, Betsy West and Julie Cohen spent countless hours researching Ginsburg's life, interviewing her peers, friends, and also managed to get a rare peek into the justices personal life here with me today to talk about Ruth Bader Ginsburg's legacy and cultural icon status, is documentary filmmaker and television news producer, Julie Cohen.Julie, welcome to All Inclusive. Supreme Court Justices are notoriously media-shy. In fact, RBG is, as far as I can tell, the first documentary about a living justice. Why did you and Betsy decide to go the hard way and focus your attention on Justice Ginsburg?Julie (02:29):Well, it was a story that felt like it would be really interesting to tell, and yes, you're right. We were the first doc done about a sitting Supreme Court Justice, but we were extremely eager to tell Justice Ginsburg's incredible story, mainly because she was getting so much attention. She was becoming a pop culture figure in the U.S. in a way that Supreme Court Justices generally don't certainly in a way that women in their eighties, generally don't. Because of a series of stinging dissents that she wrote, particularly in 2013 and 2014 as the court was moving further to the right. And she was writing strong descends saying that she thought that some major decisions that the court was making were moving in the wrong direction. And she was writing them to be understood not only by lawyers and judges but also by the general public.She sort of used the platform of a descent to teach which is something that she had literally been a teacher, a law school professor for many years in her life. And she kind of liked using her platform as a justice to teach, particularly when she thought that the Supreme Court was going the wrong way on issues like voting rights in particular women's rights, abortion rights, civil rights, just all kinds of areas, where she was concerned as many Americans were with what the court was doing.So she writes these dissents. She's writing them in sharp language that the public is going to both understand and maybe get a kick out of. And so some young, particularly young women law students kind of picked up on this, starting calling her the notorious RBG after the Notorious B.I.G. and all of a sudden, her face is on posts and leaflets and internet memes with a little crown on it. And even a couple of people got RBG tattoos, and Betsy and I were aware from previous things we'd worked on and the studies of the women's rights movement, the absolutely huge and essential role that Ruth Bader Ginsburg as a young lawyer had played in securing women's rights under the U.S. Constitution at the Supreme Court, where she had argued six cases in the 1970s, all on gender equality and won five of those six. So she had played this huge role in women's rights.And yet, that was not very well known by the general public. So myself and Betsy West, my directing partner kind of took the notorious RBG fame and all the interest in her in a pop-culture way as an excuse, basically, to do a deep dive into this very interesting piece of history about how the women's movement proceeded under law.Most people that know about the U.S. Women's liberation movement know quite a bit about the marches in the streets and the Gloria Steinem, half of what women's activism did in the 70s, but RBG played just a crucial role in that movement. More quiet because she's a more quiet person, but also because she was doing behind-the-scenes work and in appellate courts where cameras aren't rolling. We went and actually looked back at some of the news coverage of those cases for the seventies. And first of all, there was very little coverage. And second of all, when there was coverage, it almost never mentioned Ruth Bader Ginsburg by name, she was not famous for this pretty important role that she played in securing women's rights. And we wanted to change that and also explore the amusing side of an of a woman in her eighties becoming a bit of a rock star.Jay (06:38):Right. It's an amazing film. I would encourage anyone who's not seeing it to see it. So I have to ask you, how did you and Betsy managed to convince Justice Ginsburg to cooperate with you on the project?Julie (06:55):Yes, well, it was a long, it was a very long process, that needs a little bit of history going into it. The first, of course getting, cooperation and access of the subject is kind of a key first step of almost all documentary films. And in this case, the first part of that is actually getting a situation where the person is actually going to see your request. And in that case, we had a big leg up because actually both Betsy and I had interviewed Justice Ginsburg previously. We each had relationships with Justice Ginsburg's office. That meant that we knew we were going to be able to get a request to her that she would read. We made that request in January of 2015, and her the Justice got right back to us within a day or so. And her initial answer was essentially not yet.We looked over that email very carefully, and we noted that two words that did not appear in it were "no" and "never". So we took the not yet to be like, a maybe someday. We went back to her to say, "Oh, we understand that you don't want to participate in a documentary yet, but it actually takes a number of years to get a project like this together. And we were wondering if you would essentially give us your blessing to go forth and start interviewing some other people about you, with the hopes that someday you might want to participate in this," and her answer that time was, "well, I wouldn't be ready to sit down with you for an interview for at least another two years, but if you want to move forward with some of these other people, I noticed that there are three people who are not on your list that I think would be worth talking to."And so we basically took that, as our, yes, we were basically by like, okay, she's giving us her blessing to move forward with this documentary. And she's saying that she will sit down for an interview in two years. It wasn't exactly what we had hoped. She was 82 at that point. So we now know that we're waiting until she's 84. So we got enough funding to do five interviews. And we made sure that we were interviewing people that Justice Ginsburg really knew with the ex-hope and expectation that they would reach out to her and say to her, Oh, I met with these women. They seem very professional. They seem very serious. They had done a lot of research, and this seems like it's going to be a really good project. And I will say that of those initial five, three of them were the people that she had suggested because we're not foolish.I think we just thought that would make her think that we were taking seriously what her thoughts were at the time we were thinking like, Oh, we don't have to use these interviews. Like who knows, as it turned out, they were three fantastic interviews. So Justice Ginsburg turns out to be a great documentary producer among, her many intellectual talents. She actually didn't have or ask for any editorial control or input into our film beyond suggesting those three people. And actually, at a later date, suggesting that we interview her granddaughter, which we were eager to do. Other than that, she had no input in how we shaped the piece. And in fact, she never saw the film until she joined us for the world premiere at Sundance in 2018. She flew out to see the film, even though she hadn't watched it yet. She just agreed to come. She was eager to see it and she actually never asked to see it.Jay (10:35):Well, as I said, it's an amazing film. And there's a part that sticks out for me. I want to get into her legal career and the impact of it. But I remember a part of the film when you're showing her clips from Saturday Night Live and Kate McKinnon doing an impersonation of her. So what was that like showing that to her?Julie: (10:57):As her children explained to us beyond the PBS News Hour, she really was not interested in television, as much as she was an art's lover. She was not a TV person. We happened to ask her adult children and interviewed, "what does your mom think of that Saturday Night Live impression?" And they were like, "you know, I don't think she's seen it." And as soon as they said, they were like, okay, we're bringing that to the Supreme Court to show to her on camera. We were in a big state lady, Supreme Court conference room where the public relations apparatus had all sort of joined to watch this thing unfold. And when that clip started to play, because we had told them we were going to show them some clips of things from the film, they, fortunately, didn't ask us what those were going to be.Because if we had said "we're going to show the Saturday Night Live clips," I don't think we really would've gotten the sign-off on that. But so the clip starts to play. She leans in to look at it; the whole room kind of gasps. And then she's just like, "Oh, is this Saturday Night Live?" And I said "yes." And she said, "who's the actress who's playing me." And I told her the name. And then as we showed them the film, she just started to burst out laughing. And as soon as she started laughing, there was just like a sigh of relief in the whole room. And then the interesting thing is that we had, montage a few clips together and some of them involve Kate McKinnon doing like a little bit of dirty dancing and kind of a raunchy, or it got like the harder the Justice laugh.She just thought it was funny. She just appreciated the good, the good comic impersonation of her. There's a scene where she was in her Popeye, like desire for vigor, she's scarfing down a whole packet of vitamin C, and it's falling all over her face. And she just seemed to love it, see really, it was truly, truly a fun moment to be there in the room. And I'm really glad we got to capture it on film.Jay (12:52):That's very, that's very interesting. So let's zoom into her career as a lawyer and activist against gender discrimination. And from 1971 to 1976, Justice Ginsburg argued six landmark cases in front of the Supreme Court and won all. But one of them, looking back at these cases, what do you think were the key elements to her success?Julie (13:20):So the key elements to her success, which are true, kind of for all of the great appellate litigators who move constitutional law forward, is really carefully picking the cases. There were a lot of potential gender discrimination cases that Ruth Bader Ginsburg could, could have taken. You know, she was working at that time for the ACLU. And so potential cases are basically pouring in all the time. And she picked ones that she thought were winnable. 10 and 20 years before Thurgood Marshall, another fantastic Supreme Court litigator who also had later became a Justice, had done the same thing on civil rights cases had been extremely careful about what cases he picked didn't overreach. Didn't go crazy trying to tear down all of the walls at once. Had a very much a one step at a time incremental approach that had been extremely successful. And RBG, in her whole gender equality struggle, was just absolutely following the path that had been set by Thurgood Marshall.She followed his strategy, his one step at a time thing. I mean, he had been so successful. I forgot the number of cases, but it was more than 30. And, won just the huge, vast majority of them also by advancing the ball, very incrementally because, getting the Justices adjusted to change another extremely clever and I think unexpected tactic that the young Ruth Bader Ginsburg used was to take gender equality cases in which the man was discriminated against because of the way that laws that distinguished by gender, actually her argument was actually hurt both women and men. And so the great example that we use in the film is a man, a New Jersey man named Steven Wiesenfeld, who tragically lost his wife in childbirth.Ruth B. Ginsburg (15:40):Mr. Chief Justice and may it please the court. Steven Wiesenfeld and case concerns the entitlement of a female wage earner, a female wage earner in his family to social insurance of the same quality as that accorded the family of a male wage earner, neither was attending school. And Paula was the family's principal income earner. In 1972, Paula died giving birth to her son, Jason Paul, leaving the child's father, Steven Wiesenfeld, with sole responsibility for the care of Jason Paul. Well, the eighth [crosstalk 00:16:25]Julie (16:25):And his wife had been the main breadwinner, but now he's left raising this little baby and then toddler alone. He wants to be a stay-at-home dad. And when he applied to get the death benefits, that he thought, Oh, you just get this for the death of a spouse. And my wife was the breadwinner. So I want to get some benefits because she's passed away. He was told like, Oh no, those are widow benefits. Those aren't widower benefits like a guy can't get that. And so basically, in his case, sexism really hurt the man. And RBG just recognize right away that this would be a great case for her to take to the court because she knows, little lady, that she was she's arguing. And if you've ever been in Supreme Court, Main Chamber, it's an extremely imposing place at the Justices are like a good, I'd say like five to ten feet above where the lawyer is down there with the podium where you're looking up at these black robe figures before you, at this time in the 70s, you're arguing a case to nine men.And she just thought she was going to have a better shot at making the case that gender distinctions are a problem. If she could show them an instance that how this really hurt a man, because she thought that Steven Wiesenfeld was going to be relatable to these guys, even told us that she purposely arranged for him to sit near the front of the courtroom, which isn't usually done in that way. And she sort of subtly referenced him. I don't think she said, you know, it's not like a regular trial. Like you see on TV, like, Oh, the witnesses is there, nobody's really, referencing, but, she just wanted the Justices to put themselves in his place. Like, Oh, how, would you feel if this happened in your family? She just thought she had a relatable. And that was not the only case that she took, where a man has been discriminated against and had been the victim of a discriminatory law.Speaker 6 (18:33):Weinberger, Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare against the Wiesenfeld. Under the social security act. When a covered male worker dies, leaving a wife and minor children, survivor's benefits are paid both to the children and to the widow. However, when I covered female worker dies, leaving a husband and minor children, survivor's benefits are paid only to the children and not to the widower. A three-judge district court in New Jersey held that this sex-based discrimination was unconstitutional because, in violation of the equal protection component of the due process clause of the Fifth Amendment, we agree. And we affirmed Mr. Justice Powell joined by the Chief Justice.Julie (19:33):So Incrementalist and looking at both women and men being harmed by gender discrimination were her two really great strategic insights.Jay (19:46):So I think that was a really ingenious approach, but take us back to the mindset of the court at that time in the seventies. And, you have a very successful and intelligent litigator in, Justice Ginsburg who at the time was not a Justice, but, was arguing to a court of men, all men who were steeped in a different error. And she's talking about gender discrimination. I mean, how accepting was the court at this time to even hear these arguments and culturally understand where she was going with it?Julie (20:28):Yes. Well, it was, the Supreme Court, and it was kind of everyone in society when the women's rights movement were starting, just didn't get it.They just didn't understand because the thought was, I don't know what you mean that women are being discriminated against. We're really nice to women. We hold doors open for them. We treat them deferentially. We put them on a pedestal. I think it's hard for young people today to understand how deeply the world has changed on these issues. In 50 years, there was just a completely different mindset. I mean, the idea that it would be okay for a woman not to be able to have her own credit card. The husband had to get the card and then give off an extra to his wife or, a woman, not being able to get a mortgage for herself. Or, yes, of course, you can fire someone who gets pregnant, which is actually something that RBG experienced once.And then on, in a second and a later job where she went, she got pregnant with their second child. She just wore her mother-in-law's clothes. With the hopes that no one would notice that she was pregnant. The idea that you could just openly discriminate against women was so accepted that bringing it up was seen as very radical.At the time that RBG was advancing these ideas, it was quite radical. And I think that's very obvious in some of the audiotapes that we play in the film of young RBG, arguing her case to these Justices who are often just like openly snickering at her and think it's okay to be, very condescending. She's a petite person. She's so lovely. It was sort of like, yes, you're a cute little lady, but why don't you sit down? [inaudible 00:22:27] RBG, throughout her life, had an extreme amount of deliberateness and patience. And she just dealt with that by patience. She didn't snap back. She didn't get into an argument. She just very calmly and carefully explained her case with a degree of logic and with the degree of reliance on the law, that was quite difficult for the other Justices to argue with.Jay (22:58):So I want to talk a little bit about your last point about Justice Ginsburg's, personal style of activism, which is often described as you say is strategic, but she's famously quoted as saying "that anger in activism is self-defeating," and this was not a universal view at the time. And probably not today. [crosstalk 00:23:23] Many activists at this time in the feminist movement, but also other movements were in favor of a very aggressive actions, chaining themselves to fences and taking very strong actions in the street. And that, wasn't what she was about. She was about this quiet activism. So can you talk a little bit about, about that and maybe how was she accepted by the feminist community back in, in the 1970s?Julie (23:55):In terms of how other feminists responded to her? Sometimes I think in their view to careful and to deliberate approach, there's a big mix. Gloria Steinem is, and was throughout just a huge fan of RBG's approach and could see how it provided a yin and yang, that it was good to have someone, to have ladies out on the street, doing loud protests. And as you suggest, some civil disobedience, but also important to have some people who can quietly step into the halls of power and start making some changes within, she always thought the two things worked out well together, but there were others, including in the feminist legal community that thought that RBG should be pushing, that you should be, we should be pushing more aggressively, like jumped right in there and say, let's change everything all at once.And RBGs point was like, no, incrementally is the way to make changes, especially in the law, because otherwise, you're courting a backlash, but that's like a debate that lawyers looking for all kinds of different rights have argued between them. In many, many different instances, there certainly have been cases in the movement for civil rights and later in the movement for gay rights where the legal developments have come out way in front of legislative developments. And then the country and public opinion has, in fact, caught up with a court ruling. So it can work that way. So there was not initially completely smooth sailing between RBG and all parts of the women's rights movement that tended to change, especially on the abortion issue once she was on the court as a Justice. And, again and again, stuck up quite aggressively for reproductive rights.Jay (25:54):Let's talk a little bit about Martin Ginsburg, her husband, and because he had a tremendous influence on her life. And I think one, I mean, obviously the film, really gets into it, but, in general folklore, Marty's not talked a bit about a lot. And he was an extremely successful attorney on his own.Julie (26:16):Absolutely. He was one of the greatest tax lawyers in the country, hugely successful and remained hugely successful. But when his wife was appointed by Jimmy Carter to become a federal judge in DC, he made at the time kind of shocking decision that like, Oh, I know all move for her job. Instead of the wife moving for the husband's job. I'm going to move for her job. And he left his law firm and became a professor at Georgetown Law School. He had a great career, and yet a priority in his life was his wife's career. He kind of understood what her legal mind was as far as constitutional law was concerned. And he just had a sense from very early like, Oh, she could be a Supreme Court Justice. In fact, they were incorrect on this point, but he had had the thought that, oh, she could be the first woman to be a Supreme Court Justice.Something that was, I think, captured for posterity and their daughter Jane's high school yearbook because it was just something that Marty used to say. And so people predicted that about Jane, as it turned out, of course, Sandra Day O'Connor was appointed by Reagan and became the first woman Supreme Court Justice, but RBG was not far behind, and Marty's not only his support of her career, which entailed him doing 50% of the child-rearing and ultimately all of the cooking, that was key, but also him kind of pushing her forward. He was, like, she's a quiet, she was a quiet person. He was incredibly outgoing, kind of knew everybody in Washington, and really was responsible by a lot of accounts, including hers for kind of putting her name on the list of people who could potentially become a Supreme Court Justices. Once President Clinton had an opening for that.Speaker 7 (28:17):So sticking with the theme of taking someone's exact words and turning that into music. Two years ago in the Hobby Lobby decision came down, Ruth Bader Ginsburg made this amazing thing. And so we're going to sing about it. Religious organizations exist to foster the interests of persons subscribing to the same religious fee, not so before profit corporations workers to sustain these operations commonly or not commonly.Jay (29:03):You know, let's turn for a minute about the attention on Justice Ginsburg's status as a cultural icon, which was expressed in the now-famous Notorious RBG internet meme, which shows her as a likeness of the rapper and the Notorious B.I.G. It's an understatement to say that this is pretty rare for a Supreme Court Justice to become a cultural icon. I can't think of any other one who has become one, but how did she become one? And how did she react to this once she knew that this was happening?Julie (29:41):Yeah. So in the summer of 2013, she wrote a dissent to a case called Shelby County versus Holder, which was about voting rights. It was about stripping away some of the Voting Rights Act that had been put in place in the 1960s. It's an incredibly relevant decision and dissent today. And basically, the majority opinion was saying that it was okay to pull back some of the Voting Rights Act because the country has changed so much.And essentially, because there's theoretically less racism in the South, we don't need such strong, stringent voting rights, protection. And Justice Ginsburg is descent. Most famously said "to pull back, these protections is a quote, like throwing away your umbrella in a rainstorm because you're not getting wet." Meaning, no, it's because of the Voting Rights Act that there is less voting rights nightmares in some of the different states.The Voting Rights Act as it existed before this opinion came down in 2013 would have prevented changes like the recent laws that passed in Georgia. It wouldn't have been possible because they would have had to get Justice Department okay to make changes that could have prevented people from voting. So this decent, which was worded so strongly and cleverly just caught a lot of people's attention, including a law student at the time at NYU named Shana Knizhnik, who started a Notorious RBG blog, and started cataloging all of this great meaningful, but also zingy lines that, that RBG was writing in her dissents.And it just caught on with people because politically engaged liberal law students, particularly women, just started noting, Hey, this woman is like a powerhouse. And somebody, coming up with the clever name, a Notorious RBG, just really helped it grow. And then you know, how the internet is like when something catches on, it just goes crazy. And the fact that RBG was a very small, quiet, elderly Jewish grandmother just really helped that because the comparison was funny. RBG probably could have shut it down by acting like she didn't like it. But she basically used it to go out there and educate people and talk more about constitutional law and the way that she always enjoyed. And she would go do these tours. We showed quite a bit of it in our film of her talking to particularly college students and law students, and people would ask her what she thought about being the notorious RBG.And she says, "I don't see why people should be so surprised that I'm being compared to Notorious B.I.G. We have a lot in common, then she paused. And said, we were both born and raised in Brooklyn, New York." And everyone would cheer as it was like, and you could see there was like a little glimmer in her eye. The Notorious RBG thing had serious substance, but it was also a cheeky little joke. And she got the joke and she kind of played into it. And that just helped. I mean, for her doing that line again and again, and then we heard her say at talks around the country, dozens of times, it just, helped it, just became a thing.Jay (33:13):So I wanted to just touch on the fact that during the filming of RBG, you spent many, many hours following her and to different events and even filming her in some very rare and personal situations such as working out at the gym. Can you just talk a little bit about the personal experience of being very close to her, interacting with her and, filming her in these personal situations?Julie (33:41):Yeah. I mean, it was a really amazing experience. Justice Ginsburg was an incredible woman. She was, I would say, the most intimidating person I've ever met. She had a very unusual, conversational style as friends who've known her throughout her life say in our film, she was not a person who made small talk. So she really liked to talk about substance. So if you wanted to engage her in conversation, the way that two human beings normally do, when they're together in a situation, getting ready for some filming to start or whatever, you couldn't just say like, Oh, how are things going? How are the kids, nice weather? You really had to say, what did you think of last night's performance in the second act of the opera? If you talk to her about substance, she would just dive right in. And she really liked to talk about it, but she didn't really want to make any.And if sometimes when you spoke to her, her friends would joke, she's the kind of person that if you said, how are you, she would pause for a few seconds before and, give you a really thought out answer that would come out in paragraphs. Her intellect was noticeable. Her eyes were very piercing. So it was sort of intimidating to be with her, but also really delightful because as we spent more time with her and got to know her a bit, she was a delightful person. She did have a real sense of humor. After our film came out, she sent us a number of just really lovely touching notes about the impact that it had had on her. And, watching her, watch the film wasn't [inaudible 00:35:12] was seeing her workout in the gym. We didn't really know what to expect at all.At that point her workout had gotten quite a lot of attention in the print press, but nobody had ever brought a camera in there. We were taken aback when she agreed to that request. We expected her to say no; we asked her in person. Cause we learned that that was the best way to get yeses. If something had to go through layers of people, the question probably wouldn't even get to her. But we noted that normally when we asked her about, if we film a certain thing to her face, she would say yes. Including even in that opera, she'd let us put a little mini GoPro camera, on the seat, in the row, in front of her to be catching her face when she was filming. But when we went into the gym, we didn't know what we would see.We didn't really expect that she could do long sequences of planks or 20 push-ups, as has been reported. I mean, you saw what you looked like. We just didn't believe it. And then we went in there, and she was doing that with such a fierce determination and seeing her this small woman, who at that point was 84 putting that amount of just force of will into the physical paces of a workout, I cried during the filming of that scene. Cause I mean, I know people find it amusing, but I just thought it was incredibly moving.Jay (36:36):So I want to talk about Justice Ginsburg's passing, having spent so much time with her and her family, how did she change you? And, how do you see her passing impacting the country?Julie (36:55):I feel like she changed me in a number of ways, but mostly just as seeing the model of her, the relentless optimism that she took to every situation, be it a personal setback or a difficult political environment for the country. She just always chose optimism in a very deliberate way that I think is a great model. Obviously, she left an incredible legacy with everything that she achieved as a lawyer, as a Justice, not only some really meaningful victories that she had when she was arguing before the court and opinions that she wrote as a Justice but even dissents that hopefully sometime in the future will be picked up as the basis for a new direction for the court, which is always what a Justice is doing when they're writing for history. They're writing in the hopes that maybe their ideas and arguments will be picked up later so that they will become the law of the land.Jay (37:59):Well, Julie, it is an amazing film, and I would just encourage anyone who hasn't seen it to see it. It's one of the best films I've seen in recent memory, and not only was she portrayed. And she was an extraordinary human being, but also the personal side of her, the fact that, she had a caring family, the fact that her granddaughter called her Bubbe, which is a Yiddish term for, grandmother and, she was a real person. And, I think, everything came together in the film, the realness of her sense of humor, but her true accomplishments, her relationship with their family, you did an amazing job with the film and really captured her. So, congratulations, and I'm sure you've heard it many times for many people, but it's amazing. And I would encourage anyone to get it and to see it. It's been such a pleasure speaking with you, and I really appreciate your time.Julie (39:08):Thank you.Jay (39:09):Thank you.(39:15):All Inclusive is a production of the Ruderman family foundation. Our key mission is the full inclusion of people with disabilities. In all aspects of society, you can find all-inclusive on Apple podcasts, Google Play, Spotify, and Stitcher. To view the show notes, transcripts, or to learn more, go to Ruderman foundation.org/ all-inclusive. Have an idea for a podcast? Be sure to tweet at Jay Ruderman.Produced by PI media.

Matt Haney (00:07):Some people within the industry knew someone working on the show Raising Dion. Their advice to people working on the show was, "You're never going to find an eight year old girl in a wheelchair who's funny. They don't exist. You need to get an 11 or 12 year old girl and have them fake being in a wheelchair, because you're-"Sammi Haney (00:27):[crosstalk 00:00:27] saying that eight year olds can't be funny and that people with disabilities can't be funny, and that's very wrong.Speaker 4 (00:37):All Inclusive, a podcast on inclusion, innovation and social justice with Jay Ruderman.Jay Ruderman (00:47):Hi, I'm Jay Ruderman, and this is All Inclusive, a podcast focused on inclusion, innovation and social justice.Jay Ruderman (00:58):When the producers of Raising Dion, a Netflix TV series, were looking for an actress to play the role of Esperanza, the main character's best friend, they auditioned many young aspiring actresses, but when they saw Sammi Haney's audition video, they immediately knew they had found what they were looking for. Indeed, Sammi's sassy and confident Esperanza quickly became one of the show's most loved characters. Some critics even called her a show stealer.Sammi, who's only 10 years old, is also a great example of authentic representation of people with disabilities in the entertainment industry. She's here with us today, together with her father, Matt Haney.Jay Ruderman (01:41):Sammi and Matt, welcome to All Inclusive.All right. So Sammi, let's get to know you a little bit better. And in specific, can you talk a little bit about your disability?Sammi Haney (01:57):Hi, I'm Sammi Haney. I have Osteogenesis Imperfecta Type III, severe. That means I can break very easily.Jay Ruderman (02:08):And can you give us an example of how that's impacted your life in terms of, you know, how do you go about everyday life with having this disability?Sammi Haney (02:18):Well, there are different types of breaks. One is mild, which it doesn't hurt that much. Two is severe. It hurts a lot.Matt Haney (02:37):Well, give them some examples of how you've broken bones.Sammi Haney (02:39):Okay. Some of the examples are, when I was much younger, I used to break my legs while sleeping by just moving. And then this happens through my life. It never stopped. Whenever I sneeze, I break either a rib or some part of my back. That's why I try not to sneeze. And recently, I just broke this arm, but it's healed now. I broke it by just playing a VR video game on my dad's phone. And then this arm, it's healed now, it was broken by just trying to get up in the morning. I was trying to stand up and I put too much pressure on it.Jay Ruderman (03:25):And how does that impact your everyday life? You know, playing with friends or schooling, or even being an actress on a television show?Sammi Haney (03:40):When I meet someone new, I have to tell them I break easily so that they know to be careful. And I'm homeschooled because going to school would not really help because it would endanger me, and I have a lot of appointments for doctors and stuff like that, and I would miss a lot of school days.Jay Ruderman (04:08):So Matt, when did you first learn about Sammi's condition, and what impact did that have on your family?Matt Haney (04:18):We learned about it while she was still in the womb. The doctor had done a sonogram and seen that her femur bones were way shorter than expected for the time she was in the womb. And so they did a Level 2 ultrasound, and at first, everything appeared okay, but then they did another one, a follow-up, and they found the number of fractures. And so they immediately thought, "Well, this looks like it might be Osteogenesis Imperfecta because she has so many fractures, and with her femurs being shortened as well."And so we went through a rollercoaster of a number of different possible conditions she could have, but they ended up, at the end of it, realizing it was Osteogenesis Imperfecta Type III. So we knew that before birth. So she had a C-section, and at the time of the C-section, she had 19 different fractures at various stages of healing. And so that was kind of how we found out, was just through the sonogram.So we knew before she was born, which helped us kind of prepare and get involved with Facebook groups and different things where you have other people who've already gone through what we're going through. And so that was very helpful.As far as, how did it impact the family? It really opened our eyes to a lot of the ableism that's in society. Just trying to go somewhere is really hard when you have a child that has to use a wheelchair because you never know how accessible the place you're going to is. You have to do a lot of research, or you have to do a trip before you go just to see, "How are we going to get her in there? How are we going to get her out of there?" It just makes going places not as easy. We can't just pack up and go somewhere without knowing what the location is going to be like. Even for some things as simple as where they invite Sammi to something, and then she gets there and they realize, "Oh, we have no way to get Sammi on the stage. The stage is not accessible at all to her." And so we've had issues like that, even when people invite us to things.I guess another way to look at it is, since we've had Sammi, we take her out in public, and this is before Raising Dion and before she was on a TV show, a lot of people just have trouble accepting that disability is normal and that it's not the result of something terrible that the parent did. We've been just at the grocery store and someone will come up to us and say, "What did you do to make your child that way?" Or they'll walk up to us and say, "You know, if you had more faith, your child wouldn't have to be that way." And just various ignorant things like that, where you just ... I would have never known that people are so blatantly rude to parents with kids with disabilities until we had one ourselves and we just began to see a lot of that.And then with our other kids, they've grown to be a lot more inclusive in their thinking, just to be way more defensive of people that are being picked on or bullied because they're different. There have been instances where Sarah, her older sister, has stood up for her in public when they're all at the Mall or somewhere. We have instances of teenagers pulling out their phones and discretely taking pictures of Sammi without asking permission, and this is before Raising Dion, just doing rude things, just not treating her like a person. And so we just began to see a lot of the ableism that was kind of invisible to us before, because we didn't live in that world and we didn't have to face any of those consequences. And so it was just waking up to, you know, the world wasn't really built to accommodate our daughter, and just slowly realizing all the facets of that.Jay Ruderman (08:10):And how have you reacted in the past to these rude incidents when someone approaches your daughter and treats her as less than a human being? How did you react to that?Matt Haney (08:24):Well, the people that yell stuff at us, normally you think that they're wanting a conversation, and so you try to start explaining, "Well, actually, her condition is genetic," and they just walk away. They just wanted to blame you and move on. They really weren't interested in hearing your story or knowing what the real issue is.One of the things that I saw a lot too early on when she was younger is, if we'd be at a toy store or something and we're just going down the toy aisle and she's in her wheelchair, another kid would see her and just be like, "Oh," they would see, "That's just another kid. I want to go talk to her." So they'd walk over and start talking to her and then the parents would rush in and scoop up and grab their child and take them away to another aisle, because I'm just assuming there was this fear of, "Oh, my child hasn't been prepared on how to interact." Probably good intentions, thinking, "My child has not been prepared on how to interact with a child in a wheelchair. I'm so afraid that my little child's going to say something offensive or rude or odd, or it's going to become an awkward conversation. So I would rather just usher them away and not have to deal with that."And so without really realizing it, they're teaching their children the way that you treat people with disabilities is you just ignore them. You don't treat them like people, you don't get to know them. They're so afraid of that awkward conversation of their kids saying something. And we've had kids that mean well and say things that could be interpreted offensively and we don't bite their head off or anything like that. We just try to kindly talk to them and correct them if we can and move on. But I don't know that we've ever really had anybody that wants a long conversation like that. They basically, if they're rude, they just want to be rude and move on, you know?Jay Ruderman (10:13):So Sammi, how has all this impacted you? I mean, are you in pain quite frequently? And if so, how do you deal with that pain?Sammi Haney (10:24):Well, when I break something, I am in pain, but otherwise, unless my rods are moving around in there and stuff, then there's no normal pains and aches daily or anything like that. Unless I just break something and yell out of pain. And the way I deal with that pain is ... Mom, what's that medicine called? It's kind of orange-y and it's a medicine for pain.Speaker 6 (10:53):[inaudible 00:10:53]?Sammi Haney (10:53):Yeah. I take [inaudible 00:10:55].Matt Haney (10:56):But if it's a big break, then you need the prescription and relief.Sammi Haney (11:00):Yeah.Matt Haney (11:01):Yeah.Sammi Haney (11:02):It tastes bad, but I take it anyway.Jay Ruderman (11:05):So maybe we can talk about the process of auditioning. And Matt, maybe you can tell me about how the audition for Raising Dion came about.Matt Haney (11:13):Yeah, so Nikki Young, over at Morgan's Wonderland, she used to be in casting, and so she knew people at Netflix. And Netflix was looking for someone to fill the role of Esperanza on Raising Dion, and so they reached out to her and said, "Hey, do you have any kids that go to Morgan's Wonderland?" That's a park here in San Antonio where, from the ground up, it's built to be inclusive so that families can come in, and every ride, you can use your wheelchair to get on the ride. And it's not just for people with disabilities, it's also for their family members.And so they said, "Do you know of any girls that you think would be a good fit for this role of Esperanza?" And she gave them three names and one of them was Sammi. And so at the same time, we got a voicemail from Morgan's Wonderland saying that they wanted permission to share Sammi's contact information with someone for her to do some work, but the voicemail had either cut off or cut short or something, there wasn't really any more information. And we just assumed, because Sammi had been in a commercial for Morgan's Wonderland, that they were just talking about doing a commercial for something similar, and so we kind of just forgot about it and ignored it, and just said, "Well, we don't really know all the details, and we're not super concerned about her being in another commercial necessarily."And then right after that, my wife was in a Facebook group about children with disabilities, it had nothing to do with acting, and someone posted in there, "Hey, they're looking for a wheelchair user, a little girl that's like seven, eight years old, and said she's supposed to be a no-nonsense, sassy, smart girl who's hilarious and funny." And we thought, "Whoa, that is Sammi to a tee." She's super sassy, she's super sharp witted, she always speaks her mind. And we thought, "Wow, that sounds perfect for Sammi." And then we thought, "I wonder if the Morgan's Wonderland thing was related to that." But it seemed crazy, wild, like, "Why in the world would they want Sammi to be on a Netflix show? It seems like she'd have to have experience or something." And so we just figured, "You know what? Let's just go ahead and reply to this casting call and see if Netflix responds."So we emailed Netflix based on the casting call, the email that was attached to that, and they said, "Yes, we do want Sammi to audition for this part, please." They sent us some scripts and they said, "Get this back to us as soon as you can." So we spent one day practicing. And that's when me and my wife kind of realized she may be gifted in acting, because she was memorizing her lines extremely quick. Because we'd tell her, "We need to go over the line so you can memorize it," and she'd be like, "No, I already have it memorized." And we're like, "No, you don't." And she was like, "Here, take the paper. I don't need the paper." And we'd be like, "Oh wow, okay. You memorized those lines super quick. Okay." And then we just kind of coached her to just, "Be yourself when you're doing it. They want to see you, what you add to this script." And so we just encouraged her to be her silly self and not try to put on some acting mask. "Just be yourself, because they're either going to love you or they're not."And so they loved what they saw and they said, "Could you please do some more?" So they sent us some more scripts and gave us some feedback on some minor things to adjust. And soon after that, they basically told her that she had gotten the part because she was the only audition tape that made everybody in the room laugh. And so they just fell in love with her. But she can share maybe the story of how she heard that news.Sammi Haney (15:01):I'm an elephant. I memorize stuff.Matt Haney (15:05):Oh, yeah. [crosstalk 00:15:07] I didn't know why she just said that, but yeah, she's really good at memorizing. Even when they do changes to the script, and they'll say, "Okay, for this line, now, instead of saying this, say this," and sometimes I'll be confused as to what they want changed, but she'll know exactly what they're talking about and she'll just whip it out and say it, you know? And so she's really good at that, getting her lines. But she does have to practice a lot. She puts in a lot of work. It's definitely a huge blessing, but it's not an easy thing. She puts a lot of work into it, even though she makes it look easy. But she does put a lot of work into it.Jay Ruderman (15:44):So Sammi, tell me about your reaction when you first heard that you got the part.Sammi Haney (15:50):We were on a road trip to go visit family. And in the middle of driving, someone called us. The person who was not driving answered, and they said I got the part. And everyone in the car was screaming and yelling, and we did cut our vacation short, but that doesn't matter.Matt Haney (16:11):Yeah. They had [inaudible 00:16:12] fly out to Atlanta to sign the contract almost immediately. So the vacation was cut short.Sammi Haney (16:19):That's okay.Matt Haney (16:20):Yeah.Sammi Haney (16:20):We vacationed later.Jay Ruderman (16:22):So can you talk about any special provisions or accommodations that were made by the show for Sammi to participate in the production?Matt Haney (16:35):Yeah. So the first thing that we did was, I read through all the scripts, me and my wife, and we just found all the things that we thought would probably be troublesome for Sammi. Like they had her picking up a heavy backpack. They had a scene where, within one scene, there was like three different characters who picked her up and put her into a car seat and then took her out of the car seat. And so we were like, "We need to rewrite that because we're just not comfortable with that many strangers picking her up and handling her because they could break her so easily." And they rewrote that part. And then there's a scene where she has to go save Dion by grabbing his inhaler because he has asthma, and she's supposed to speed across some gravel, and we just said, "Well, we're not really comfortable with her going super fast on this type of gravel. Can we put a pavement in or something?" And they changed that and fixed that. There was a lot of little changes like that that they were all open to. So that was the first thing.Then I guess the second thing is, when we finally got there and they started filming ... They move all the actors around in these huge vans, and this is just normal for every show, whether it's Raising Dion or Stranger Things. They all use the same type of van, but they're color-coded, so the red vans are for this show, the white vans are for this show. But these vans, when you get out of them, they have these very, very tall steps that are not natural. They're just really tall steps. And then when you get into the van, there's these very narrow aisle seats. So we were having to pick Sammi up and hold her and then get into the van, and right away we were like, "This is not safe. We don't feel comfortable doing this, because we're going to be doing this hundreds of times over the next couple of months and we don't want an accident to happen." So within two hours, they had a mobility van on set that they gave us to use for the whole duration of the show. And they actually used it in the show. You'll see it in the show. I think it's episode four or five.Sammi Haney (18:34):The show that dad was in.Matt Haney (18:35):Yeah. So you press a button and the door opens up in the van and a ramp comes out, and then she rolls her wheelchair in there, and there's tie-downs to strap down her wheelchair, and a seatbelt. And so they got that for her within two hours. That was amazing.And then obviously, for her trailer, most trailers don't come with a ramp. They just have stairs. But they added a ramp to her trailer for her. And then every time she's shooting, if she's coming on set or off of set, there's always a lot of people moving around, it's pretty chaotic, and you've got people carrying heavy equipment and background props and different things, and so they always stop everything and halt everything. And they're on their walkies, they're like, "Okay, Sammi's coming through. Everybody halt. Everybody clear a path." And so they make sure she has a clear path for her wheelchair and nobody's going to be walking around her, because we don't want anyone to bump into her and cause a fracture.And so they're super careful with her. They've been super accommodating for everything we've asked. And they're always stopping us and saying, "Hey, if there's anything you're uncomfortable with today on the shoot, let us know." They're always bringing up every situation. So they're being as inclusive and adopting everything as they can. We haven't had any problems. We're really surprised at how much they've embraced Sammi and made everything very safe for her.Jay Ruderman (19:53):Well, I think we should say that this is a show where, for Sammi's role, Raising Dion wanted to cast a young person with a disability, and I think it sounds like they really understood what goes into that and what accommodations need to be made. Even if they are not there at the outset, that they are worked in as situations develop, which is good. And I wish more shows would go in that direction.So Matt, let me ask you, what reactions did you and your wife receive from people who watched the show?Matt Haney (20:35):Well, for a long time, we couldn't tell anybody she was on the show. We could just say that, "Sammi is going to be on a Netflix show." And it was kind of strange because we didn't expect for everyone to assume this, but everyone we talked to just assumed, "Oh, you mean she's going to be on a reality show or something, about her disability?" And we're like, "No, why would you assume that?" And it just seemed odd that there's this kind of expectation that, if someone with a disability is going to be on a TV show, then it's going to center around their disability, and it can't just be a drama or a superhero show or something. And I guess because she had not acted before, I guess there is the sense that, "Oh, well, if you don't have any history of acting, you would probably get into reality TV easier than anything else." But it was just a little bit odd that that's what they all expected.But once it came out and everybody saw it, they were blown away because she is a natural actor. Everyone that knew us was like, "Wow, we knew your daughter was in the show, but we had no idea she was going to be that good." And it was just because she was so natural at it.And then after it came out, she had a number of people with disabilities that used to be in acting and got out of acting, and after seeing her on the show, it kind of renewed their fire to do that, and they said, "Hey, I just want to let you know I'm getting back into acting because of your role on Raising Dion." And so that's super exciting for us to hear that because that's one of the things we wanted to do, was to allow this to be an opportunity to get people excited to say, "Hey, I have a disability. I can act too." There's a lot of people that thought that door was just closed to them because they had a disability and you don't see a lot of people on TV shows with disabilities that are authentic. And so we're hoping this just starts a little something and gets the fire going that Hollywood realizes this, and actors with disabilities realize this; that it can happen.Jay Ruderman (22:42):Yeah. So we've done, as a foundation, a lot of work in advocating for authentic representation of disability. And most recently, NBC Universal and CBS Viacom have come on agreeing to audition actors with disabilities for all roles. But I wanted to ask you and Sammi, do you think it's important that the roles of characters with disabilities be played by actual actors with those disabilities?Sammi Haney (23:11):Mm-hmm (affirmative).Matt Haney (23:12):Yeah, I do. And what I kind of relate it to when people have trouble understanding why I would believe that is, you know, back in the day, they used to have all the white actors play all the roles and they would use makeup to make themselves appear like they were another race. And now everyone realizes that it was hugely wrong and you don't see that happen now.Well, it's also wrong to take a role that should be given to someone with a disability and give it to an able-bodied actor. And I think if you look a lot of those roles that have been given, you just see the details in the script because they don't consult people with disabilities to make it authentic; you see actors in wheelchairs doing things in ways that someone with that condition would never do it. And a large viewership of people do have disabilities and they do recognize these inconsistencies, these irregularities. And I think it makes the story less interesting, less genuine, less authentic, and I just think it's wrong. I think that clearly, Sammi has shown that it can be done and there's no reason for it not to be done. And so I think it's just a bunch of excuses are given for why they do it.I'll be very careful about how I say this. Some people within the industry knew someone working on the show Raising Dion, and I don't know who these people are, so I'm not trying to out anybody or anything like that, but they knew about the role because they knew other people working on the show, and their advice to people working on the show was, "You're never going to find an eight year old girl in a wheelchair who's funny. They don't exist." And so it was like, "Whoa." To hear that that's the type of mentality that goes around Hollywood. And the advice was, "You need to get an 11 or 12 year old girl, and-"Sammi Haney (25:15):That's very ageist and ableist.Matt Haney (25:20):Yeah, exactly. "You need to get an 11 or 12 year old girl and have them fake being in a wheelchair, because you're-"Sammi Haney (25:26):It's saying that eight year olds can't be funny and that people with disabilities can't be funny. And that's very wrong.Matt Haney (25:34):Yeah. And so that's the type of mindset that Netflix was fighting against. It's very rare that people get roles like Sammi did. I mean, what they did, and what Carol Barbee, the show runner, she's the one who created the role of Esperanza and she's the one that was, from the very beginning, saying, "This is going to be an authentically cast role," they did something very exceptional there. And we want to see that become more common.Jay Ruderman (26:00):Well, I mean, if you look at the last three decades of men that have won the Oscar for Best Actor, half of them have won for playing a disability. So I think that there is this ingrained perception in the entertainment industry that playing a disability is good acting. Whereas what you mentioned, playing a different race or a different gender, or even sexual orientation, is no longer accepted, but with disability, you still have that hurdle.Although I do see, from our own experiences as activists, that more and more studios are coming on board. We're giving out the seal of approval to many, many shows. So there are showrunners who have made it a point of casting authentically, and I think they're seeing people like Sammi are great actresses and the talent pool is out there if you look for it. So Sammi, how has playing in Raising Dion changed your life?Sammi Haney (27:16):Well, this was before COVID, before we couldn't go out places and stuff. When we were in public, people would come up and say, "Oh, are you Esperanza from Raising Dion?" And I was like, "Yeah." So I'm happy about that because I get to meet a lot more people. And this was before COVID, may I remind you; Netflix invited me to two Netflix parties. One was the Emmys ... ?Matt Haney (27:47):Yeah.Sammi Haney (27:48):Yeah, the Emmys.Matt Haney (27:48):Mm-hmm (affirmative).Sammi Haney (27:49):And the other was a Christmas party. And that was super awesome. I got to meet a bunch of people, dance, (singing), and stuff like that. So, yeah. It's been awesome.Matt Haney (28:02):Yeah, it was pretty awesome because we were kind of nervous, we felt ... Well, I felt out of place. I'm not a star, but Sammi is. But a lot of the celebrities at these parties would come up and approach Sammi and they already knew who she was and they wanted to talk to her. So we were just impressed with that. It was really amazing to see that other actors, Adam Sandler, Dave Chappelle, all came up and approached her.Sammi Haney (28:25):Let me tell you a funny story. So at the Christmas party, the music was way too loud. So Adam Sandler came and talked to me, but I kept on thinking he said, "Bye," so I said bye too. And I didn't know what he was saying, so I was like, "Bye! Bye!"Matt Haney (28:41):Yeah, she kind of bye-d him away, because he was saying hi, but she thought he was saying bye or something. I don't know. She ended the conversation accidentally.Sammi Haney (28:48):I thought he was saying bye because he had to go or something. And I was saying bye, but I didn't know he was saying something else. So it was very confusing. And if you're listening to this right now, Adam Sandler, I am very sorry.Jay Ruderman (29:05):Yeah. Well, I'm sure he appreciates that. Matt, let me ask you a serious question. There's so many examples of child actors whose early success had a major impact on their lives and it was not always a positive impact. How are you and your wife protecting Sammi in a way to prevent sort of the tragedies that have happened in the past with child actors?Matt Haney (29:31):Yeah. Well, one thing that we're doing that's not really a traditional way of doing it is, we don't have a manager, we don't have an agent. We do everything ourselves. And so we don't have anyone that's kind of putting pressure on her, like, "You need to do this to be a bigger star," or, "You need to do that." And so we're kind of controlling all of that ourselves.And then as well, when she's on set, doing Raising Dion, she's never by herself. My wife is always there right next to her. I've used all of my vacation days since she got on the show to go visit her on set. So she doesn't have any other influences that are coming from Hollywood and trying to push her in certain directions. For instance, she had a major studio, which I won't name, but a major studio, one of the big ones, wanted her to have a star role in a new show coming out, and they sent us a script and we looked at it, and there was just ... Every negative stereotype you could associate with a person with a disability was in the script. And it was just really full of ableism.And we wrote them back and said ... Which a manager and agent would never want you to ... This is not a good move to do, but we thought it was the right thing to do. So we sat down and wrote out, "Here's all the things we had issues with in this script, and here's how you could revise it or begin to revise," and gave our own suggestions and explained why what was said was hurtful and offensive. And we never heard back from them again. But the next time that they sent out a casting call for that very same role, we noticed that they had applied everything we had told them. So they changed all the descriptions, they changed everything about it. But clearly, we had closed that door by being upfront about it.So we don't have anyone that's pressuring her to make money or to take whatever role comes her way. We're not treating this as though we're desperate for her to have more roles or anything. We've had a lot of people reach out to us, and so she has lots of offers that she gets, and if it's not right, we just decline it, because we're explaining to her, "The most important thing that you should do with this opportunity is be a good advocate, be a good representative of the disability community." And so that's what we're putting first in her mind, is, "This is not about you being famous or you making money. This is about you having a chance to be a good representative for the disability community and to make change and break down walls and break down barriers."Sammi Haney (32:11):[crosstalk 00:32:11] I know. [inaudible 00:32:11].Matt Haney (32:11):Yeah. She hears me.Jay Ruderman (32:12):So Sammi, a couple of questions I'd like to end with, and then some questions from some of your fans. First of all, what's the best part of being an actress for you?Sammi Haney (32:28):Well, the best part of being an actress is representing people with disabilities and helping get that out there that people with disabilities can be actors, and that there should be authentic roles for people with disabilities. And that's my favorite part about acting, is to help other people.Jay Ruderman (32:54):That's very mature of you. So a couple of questions from your fans. This is from Jackson Sanford, 24. "Do you plan acting as a career?"Sammi Haney (33:06):Well, yes, I do, but I don't know what's going to happen after I get out of college. So I'm still probably going to act after I get out of college, but I don't know what I'm going to do after that. But I would like to be in many other TV shows and movies and stuff like that. So I am planning it as a career mostly. I don't know what's going to happen in the future, but yeah.Jay Ruderman (33:36):Here's a question from LilyY07. "What is your favorite behind the scenes memory of filming Raising Dion?"Sammi Haney (33:47):Okay. Well, I don't really have that many special effects, but the one that I do remember is the one where, you know how you kind of see me floating up in my chair, out of my chair? Well, actually, the way how that was done was ... There was no green screen, none of that. You see my power wheelchair right here? Let me just ... I know other people can't see this, but I can rise my wheelchair. So I just rised my wheelchair to its highest point so that it would look like I'm flying out of my chair. So they filned that and they edited out the chair. And for the leg scene where it looks like I'm walking, I just moved my legs like I was walking.Jay Ruderman (34:37):That's cool.Sammi Haney (34:38):So that's how it was done.Jay Ruderman (34:40):So one last question from [inaudible 00:34:43]. "When can we expect Esperanza to get her own show? Hint: Raising Esperanza."Sammi Haney (34:58):Okay. I don't think that's going to happen. Raising Esperanza. [inaudible 00:35:03] That's the most outrageous question I've ever gotten through the years, but ... Okay.Jay Ruderman (35:08):I think it's clear that your fans love you and they want to see more of you. And I think the fact that you are authentic, not only in portraying disability, but as a person, and your vivaciousness comes across, I think people love that. I really want to thank you, Sammi and Matt, for spending some time with me on All Inclusive. It was a pleasure talking to you and I wish you a lot of success coming up in the coming years.Sammi Haney (35:41):Thank you.Matt Haney (35:41):Thank you.Jay Ruderman (35:41):Thank you. Nice meeting you guys.Matt Haney (35:42):[inaudible 00:35:42].Sammi Haney (35:42):Nice meeting you too.Speaker 4 (35:49):All Inclusive is a production of the Ruderman Family Foundation. Our key mission is the full inclusion of people with disabilities in all aspects of society. You can find All Inclusive on Apple Podcast, Google Play, Spotify and Stitcher. To view the show notes, transcripts, or to learn more, go to rudermanfoundation.org/allinclusive.Have an idea for a podcast? Be sure to tweet @jayruderman.Follow the podcast on Instagram @all_inclusivewithjay

Brenda Jones (00:01):

I think Congressman Lewis was a categorically unique individual, who had always been seeking a way to engage the power of love, and a spiritual means, a means that was morally consistent with his belief and his faith, that could break the back of the segregated system.

Speaker 2 (00:33):

All Inclusive, a podcast on inclusion, innovation, and social justice with Jay Ruderman.

Jay Ruderman (00:43):

Hi, I’m Jay Ruderman, and this is All Inclusive, a podcast focused on inclusion, innovation and social justice.

Jay Ruderman (00:54):

Long time civil rights activist and veteran Congressman John Lewis, who passed away in July, 2020 is an icon. Loved and respected for his actions and leadership in the civil rights movement since the early 1960s. Although already well-known in the African-American community and amongst his peers in Washington, DC, Brenda Jones, his communications director is credited by the press as one of the key people responsible for solidifying Lewis’s public image and making him a household name in the United States and abroad. Brenda also co-authored with Lewis the book Across That Bridge, Lewis’s biography.

Jay Ruderman (01:39):

Before we dive into Congressman Lewis’s career as a civil rights activist, how did you become his communications director?

Brenda Jones (01:49):

Essentially before I even met Congressman Lewis, my husband and I went on what we call the civil rights tour to the Deep South, because I had never been to places like Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi. And so he had a medical conference in Nashville and we decided to take a tour, by car, from Nashville to new Orleans and back. And at the time we were reading Congressman Lewis’s biography, and it is very informative about all of the different sites in the South where many, many important things happened. It’s called Walking With The Wind. And so that was that.

Brenda Jones (02:42):

My husband subsequently passed away.

Jay Ruderman (02:45):

I’m sorry.

Brenda Jones (02:47):

Yes, but I was literally sitting at home thinking to myself, “Brenda, what are you going to do?” And a friend of mine had gotten a job in Congressman Lewis’s office and called me and said, “Brenda, this is a job I think you should try for.” So I did. hat day ended up being the first anniversary of my husband’s death, the day that I had the interview for this job. And that day, I actually had a flat tire on the way to the House of Representatives. So it was a very difficult day for me because of my husband’s death, very emotional, and I was really feeling negatively. I was thinking, “I’m not going to get this job.” And then I had a flat tire and I thought all these impediments, things aren’t going well.

Brenda Jones (03:46):

And when I got there, I just decided to put everything out of my mind, not, perfectionist that I am, condemn myself for anything that happened, but just be there in the moment and have a good interview, be positive. And it worked. We had a conversation that lasted about an hour and a half, and then the chief of staff said to me, “Can you meet the congressmen tomorrow?” So I said, “Yes, of course.” And we met at a Starbucks that is very close to where the Congressman used to live on Third and Pennsylvania Avenue Southeast in DC. So I went upstairs and the Congressman and his chief of staff were sitting at a small table and I just sat down at the table. The interesting thing about Congressman Lewis is that he is a very warm, gentle, engaging person. His presence was very, very powerful, so you knew you were in the presence of someone who was special, but he himself was a very mild-mannered person and really easy to engage.

Brenda Jones (05:09):

He wasn’t dramatic or overpowering or anything that you think would be what a important influential public figure was like. He just simply asked me questions and I answered them. And he said to me, because this was in 2003 during the Bush administration, and he said to me, “Why are you interested in getting into politics at this time?” Because of course it was a period of deconstruction of many of the things that he was involved in. And I said to him, “Well, I wouldn’t just work for any politician, but you are a person who’s put your life on the line so that I could be there, so that we could participate in the political process, so that millions of people would have an entrance to democracy in America.” And I think that did it. He said, “Well, okay. You talked to my chief of staff.” and I got the job.

Jay Ruderman (06:19):

It must’ve been emotional, but at the same time, it sounds like he really put you at ease.

Brenda Jones (06:25):

Absolutely. He was someone who moved around the House of Representatives. He spoke to everybody, literally everybody, policemen, people who were picking up the trash, receptionists, everybody. He gave everyone his attention and respect. That was something that was very important to him, that people were respected, for their dignity and their worth, every human being. I remember when I first got there, for some reason there were elevator operators in the Cannon building. And when I told her who I was working for, she got very enthusiastic, which was true, working for him. But this was one of my first experiences with that. And she said to me, she said, “Brenda, I have always wanted to pinch Congressman Lewis’s cheeks. He has the most amazing cheeks.” And I said, :”Well, it’s true. He does have baby cheeks.” So we talked about this.

Brenda Jones (07:39):

And then, later, I think it was maybe a day after, the Congressman came into the office, and he asked for me, which of course I was a new employee so that didn’t happen very frequently in the very beginning. And he said, “I talked to”, he mentioned the name of the elevator operator, I can’t remember her name, but he said, “I talked to so-and-so”, this person. And I was so embarrassed. I thought, “Oh, no, what did she say?” And he said, “She told me what you all said.” And I thought, “Oh my God.” I don’t know what he’s thinking. I told her he has baby cheeks. And I said, “Well, did you let her pinch your cheeks?” And he said, “Yes.” He was an engaging person. He really, he loved people. And he was a very open, engaging, creative person.

Jay Ruderman (08:45):

So let’s take us back to the early ’60s. Congressman Lewis was well-known for his philosophy of nonviolent activism, as you’ve said, which he sometimes referred to as good trouble. And an example of this was that he was one of the key organizers for what was known as the Freedom Rides from Washington DC to New Orleans. Now, for the benefit of some of our younger listeners who may not know this history, can you briefly talk about the story of these rides?

Brenda Jones (09:18):

Yes. Well, the Freedom Rides occurred sort of in the early to the middle of the civil rights activism of the 1960s. So at this point, Congressman Lewis had already been a successful participant in the Nashville sit-in movement, where they through a process of sit-ins had desegregated downtown Nashville. So, what happened was there was a Supreme Court decision that essentially stated in interstate travel, which of course is managed by the federal government, desegregation was illegal. And as many of you may know, in the 1960s, before 1964, before the advent of the Civil Rights Act, it was illegal, against the law, in certain Southern states, most of the states of the old Confederacy, for African-Americans and white people to share a seat on a bus.

Brenda Jones (10:27):

And the Montgomery bus boycott was part of trying to break that law, trying to demonstrate that it was immoral. And so that had been successful in the Montgomery boycott, but there were still all of these states throughout the South where it was illegal. So what would happen is if you were traveling, say from Boston to Montgomery, Alabama, once you got across the Mason-Dixon line, everybody would switch seats so that white people were sitting next to each other and black people were sitting next to each other at the back of the bus. And if that didn’t happen, you could literally be arrested and taken to jail.

Brenda Jones (11:24):

So what these individuals did, and Congressman Lewis was on the first Freedom Ride. He was one of the original 13 Freedom Riders. They were attempting to ride from Washington DC to New Orleans, Louisiana.

John Lewis (11:44):

The next day, May 4th, we boarded a Greyhound bus and some boarded a Trailway bus leaving Washington DC, as a integrated group. The first real incident occurred in a little town called Rock Hill, South Carolina, about 35 miles from Charlotte, North Carolina, when my seat mate, the two of us, tried to enter a so-called white waiting room. My seat mate was a young white gentlemen.

Brenda Jones (12:11):

And once they got into a variety of cities like Rock Hill, North Carolina, for example, they were met by violent and angry mobs led by the Ku Klux Klan. In some instances, they were dragged off of these buses. They were beaten. And then you can see many stories of them, including Congressman Lewis and his seat mate, Jim Zwerg, who experienced a disability that he has to this day from the beating in those rides, and their bloody faces during this encounter.

John Lewis (12:58):

And members of the Klan attacked us and left us lying in a pool of blood. They left us bloody. The Freedom Rides continued.

Brenda Jones (13:20):

These were mainly young people, students, who decided to take on this kind of activism. And they all had to write out their wills. They knew that they could all be killed and in order to participate, they had to write out their Last Will and Testament, and somewhere, somebody has Congressman Lewis’, the letter that he wrote saying what he wanted to do if he was to, or what he wanted to have done if he was to be killed. And they got as far as Mississippi, in many cases, in Congressman Lewis’s case, they were arrested en masse in Mississippi. So they sent hundreds of people on buses to Mississippi, and they would all be arrested and put in jail. So in the end, I think it was like two or 300 people were imprisoned in Mississippi. They decided not to accept bail because they wanted to make a point. And so they stayed there for about 30 days in Parchman Penitentiary to make the point that this kind of practice was wrong.

Jay Ruderman (14:40):

At that time, the world was watching, they had gained the world’s attention of the segregation, the racism, and the hatred that was going on in the Southern part of the United States at that time. So their technique of not accepting bail and staying in prison was gaining a lot of attention.

Brenda Jones (15:00):

Absolutely. Absolutely. And it was ultimately what it gave rise to was the Civil Rights Act of 1964 that effectively ended segregation, legalized segregation. It is no longer legal for someone, a public organization. You can privately, you can still ban people privately, but publicly you cannot segregate.

Jay Ruderman (15:32):

During one of these protests, Congressman Lewis was badly beaten by a mob, and arrested, as you said, but by the state police, but yet he insisted on nonviolent protests in the face of such violence. Can you explain why? I mean, some people when faced with violence are going to react with violence, and yet he and his followers never did. And in doing so probably gained the moral high ground, but it must’ve been such a difficult thing to go through, to be beaten and to be injured and not fight back.

Brenda Jones (16:13):

I think Congressman Lewis was a categorically unique individual, who had always been seeking a way to engage the power of love, and a spiritual means, a means that was morally consistent with his belief and his faith that could break the back of the segregated system. He had long been, as a child, really resistant to, and unable to comply with, segregation and complained frequently to his parents that it was wrong. And so when he heard Martin Luther King, Jr. on a radio one Sunday when he was 15 years old, he took hold of this philosophy and discipline of nonviolence. So even as a young person, I think he was very captivated by this, and this made it easier for him than maybe other people, say you or me, who have a different kind of orientation, to accept nonviolence as a means to change, to transition and change.

Jay Ruderman (17:32):

Can you talk a little bit about Congressman Lewis’ relationship with Dr. King? I mean, they were of different ages, but they obviously knew each other.

Brenda Jones (17:41):

Yes. He adored Martin Luther King, Jr. because he says that Martin Luther King, Jr. essentially gave him and hundreds, maybe even thousands of others, a way out, or a way in, depending upon how you want to look at it. He was someone who grew up in the cotton fields of Alabama, who knew something was deeply wrong in our society, who wanted to do something about it, but he didn’t have the means. He didn’t have a mechanism by which he could create change. And Martin Luther King, Jr. embodied, symbolized, and executed the capacity to make a change that freed millions of Americans, not just, Civil Rights Act of 1964 affected not only African-Americans, but all Americans, as did the Voting Rights act of ’65. And so he deeply admired Dr. King, and in fact, he wrote to Dr. King when he was a young man.

Brenda Jones (18:56):

So when he was 15, he heard King on the radio and he immediately went out and engaged a protest. He took all of his cousins and brothers and sisters down to the public library and asked to get a library card. And the librarian told him, he said, very nicely, that it was not possible for him to have a library card because he was an African-American. And so they left the library and he liked to say that he didn’t return to that library until they gave him a book talk related to his first book Walking With The Wind. And when he came there and gave the talk, they gave him a library card.

Brenda Jones (19:46):

So Congressman Lewis learned the discipline and philosophy of non-violence at the feet of some masters, men who were deeply, deeply committed to non-violence in any circumstance. And when in Rock Hill, North Carolina, for example, he was beaten, and you see those famous pictures of him and Jim Zwerg standing there with bloody faces. They asked him, “Do you want to press charges?” And he and Jim Zwerg said, “No. Our interest is not in revenge or meting out punishment, but we are trying to demonstrate to people that violence is not the way. This is not how we should engage with each other.” So they didn’t press charges. And he was willing to get beaten and arrested many times to serve a greater cause.

Jay Ruderman (20:51):

So let’s go back to the time, again, obviously there is this very powerful, very influential movement of nonviolence in the civil rights movement that’s grabbing hold, but maybe you can talk about the reaction of the African-American community at the time to this philosophy of nonviolence. Were there other activists who took a different take and said, “No, we’re going to meet violence with violence?”

Brenda Jones (21:25):

I think most of the civil rights movement actually was non-violent. Even if you’re talking about aspects in the North, related to Malcolm X and and the Black Panthers, for example. Even the Black Panthers were not violent. They believed in self-defense. So they didn’t go out and create violence, but they did say, unlike Congressman Lewis’ branch of the movement, “If you are violent toward me, I am going to defend myself.”

Brenda Jones (22:02):

So I think the reason that non-violence really took hold in the southern United States is because the relationships between African-Americans and white communities was very intertwined in the South, mainly because it’s an agricultural community, so there is an interdependence that has to occur. You need many, many people to farm your crops, and most of those people were African-American people. So there was a interesting kind of interplay between African-Americans and white Americans in the South that made non-violence resonate. Also, the South was then, and still is, very Christian in its orientation. So anything that a minister said was taken as nearly as the truth in the South, especially at that time. And many of these individuals, I mean, essentially the civil rights movement was a movement of ministers.

Brenda Jones (23:11):

And so because of the backdrop of that teaching in the South, and the influence that it had, and the fact that all of these things occurred in churches, there were many, many people who accepted and took on the charge to engage in non-violent protests. Young people, children, mothers, fathers, doctors, lawyers, they all had to engage in these massive protests in order for, non-violent protests, in order for the movement to be successful. And they did. They did do that.

Jay Ruderman (23:53):

Let’s talk about love for a moment, because there was an interesting incident where one of the thugs who attacked Congressman Lewis during the Freedom Rides was a man named Elwin Wilson. And in 2009 Wilson and Congressman Lewis met again, but this time under very different circumstances. By the time you were already working for Congressman Lewis as his Communications Director, what can you tell us about this extraordinary meeting and how it came to be?

Brenda Jones (24:25):

It was a journalist for a newspaper in Rock Hill, South Carolina that I had interacted with before on other stories, who got in touch with me.

Brenda Jones (24:38):

And he said, “Brenda, there is a man in Rock Hill who was part of the mob that beat Congressman Lewis. And he would like to apologize.” So I told Congressman Lewis about this, and he was immediately receptive.

John Lewis (24:59):

Many years later, and remember, this happened in May, 1961. The local police officials came up and wanted to know whether we wanted to press charges. We said, “No. We come with peace and love and nonviolence.” In May, or February, rather, ’09, one of the members of the Klan who had beat us came to my Washington office. He heard through a reporter that I was there, came with his son. His son was in his 40s. He was in his 70s. He said, “Mr. Lewis, I’m one of the people that attacked you and your seat mate. I want to apologize. Will you forgive me?” I said, “Yes. I accept your apology. Yes, I forgive you.” He started crying. The son started crying. They hugged me. I hugged them back and I started crying.

Brenda Jones (26:11):

And Elwin Wilson, he was a really interesting man. Apparently when Barack Obama was elected to the presidency that had an impact on Elwin Wilson. And he was elderly by this time, and thinking about the fact that he wasn’t going to be here forever. And so he told a friend of his that he was concerned that he might not ascend when he died, but actually might go a place that he was concerned about. And his friend said to him, “Well, it’s not too late. It’s not too late for you to rectify some of the things that you have done.” And so he set about apologizing to a variety of people, he had been a member of the Klan, so a variety of people who he had injured, but the only person he wasn’t able to reach was Congressman Lewis.

Brenda Jones (27:16):

And this reporter said to him, “Well, I know how to get in touch with him.” And that’s what happened. Elwin Wilson was a very interesting man. I’m sorry that he passed away.

John Lewis (27:32):

That is the power of the way of peace. The power of the way of love. The power of the way of nonviolent, to be reconciled. In the final analysis, we are one people. We are one family. We all live in the same house. Not just American house, but the world house. I must tell you, tonight, that in spite of 40 arrests, jailings, being beaten and left not only bloody in Rock Hill, South Carolina, but at the Greyhound bus station in Montgomery when I was hit in the head by a member of an angry mob with a wooden Coca-Cola crate, I’m still hopeful. Still optimistic. And I say to you here tonight that we must never, ever give up. We must never, ever give in. We must never get lost in a sea of despair. We must keep the faith. In spite of being arrested and going to jail 40 times during the ’60s, and being arrested five times since I’ve been in the Congress, I’m not going to turn back.

John Lewis (28:52):

And you must not turn back. You must not give out. You must not give in. We can create the beloved community, here, here in America.

Jay Ruderman (29:17):

I want to switch gears finally and talk about another area of Congressman Lewis’ activism, that’s education. And in 2013, he released a graphic novel, essentially a comic, called March, about the civil rights movement. How did this idea come about and why did he choose a comic in the first place?

Brenda Jones (29:39):

Well, I don’t think he was enamored of the idea in the beginning, but he had a member of his staff who was very involved in comic books and wanted Congressman Lewis to write a comic book with him. During the Montgomery bus boycott a group released a comic book called Martin Luther King, Jr. And The Montgomery Story, and Congressman Lewis remembered how impactful that comic book was during the Montgomery years. And so I think that was influential in his knowing that a comic book could reach people that a video or a book, a 300 page biography, would not. And his interest was always in reaching out as far as he could to anybody who could listen to a message about peace and non-violence and government, getting engaged in government and politics.

Brenda Jones (30:51):

So ultimately I think he was convinced that this is something he should try. And he was a very creative man, unbeknownst to most people. He loved innovation. He loved technology. He loved new ideas. There were many instances where he was engaged. We did liner notes to a record. He was included in rap videos. He was included in little cameos on television series. So he was open to and interested in any kind of creative way to reach young people.

Jay Ruderman (31:33):

You worked with Congressman Lewis for 15 years. How did he change your life and your own views on activism and making an impact in the world?

Brenda Jones (31:47):

That is very interesting. I think he really symbolized and demonstrated to me the power of nonviolence, because I grew up in a city that was more engaged in using power to push back against things that happened to you, to take a stand, to be confrontational. And it wasn’t until I started working with him that I really realized that kind of philosophy had really emerged from the civil rights movement. And he taught me how the philosophy and discipline of nonviolence is a more, really, I think, more effective strategy, than confrontation. Not that non-violence is not confrontational, it is, but if you can confront with the kind of wisdom that looks toward the future resolution that needs to come, then really you are engaging the truth in a way that cuts through all of the difficulty, the ups and downs, everything you’re going to face before you get to that point.

Brenda Jones (33:13):

So I think that’s why a lot of people worked for him for a long time, because his presence, it was informative. You absorbed something in his presence, unnameable, that you just couldn’t receive elsewhere. He was just a great, really extraordinary individual.

Jay Ruderman (33:38):

Well, Brenda, it’s been a pleasure speaking to you today. Very informative, and I really appreciate your time.

Brenda Jones (33:46):

Well, thank you. Thank you so much for keeping the life of John Lewis alive. He is a great man. He represents so much that we need to understand. So I’m glad you are interested in talking about it.

Jay Ruderman (34:03):

Thank you.

Brenda Jones (34:03):

Thank you.

Jay Ruderman (34:08):

All Inclusive is a production of the Ruderman Family Foundation. Our key mission is the full inclusion of people with disabilities in all aspects of society. You can find All Inclusive on Apple Podcast, Google Play, Spotify and Stitcher. To view the show notes, transcripts, or to learn more, go to rudermanfoundation.org/allinclusive. Have an idea for a podcast? Be sure to tweet @Jay Ruderman.

‍

Richard Bernstein:

I am willing to venture that if I had gone in front of a committee, a merit selection committee, they would have said, oh my goodness, that is so inspirational. That this person is blind and they want to be a Supreme Court justice, and I’m so inspired. But as soon as you leave the room and the door is closed, I am willing to bet that the conversation would take a totally different tone. And it would be that of, it’s just not going to work. It’s just going to make it too challenging and too difficult for the Court to have to sustain that.

Speaker 3:

All Inclusive, a podcast on inclusion, innovation, and social justice with Jay Ruderman.

Jay Ruderman:

Hi, I’m Jay Ruderman and this is All Inclusive. A podcast focused on inclusion, innovation and social justice. Tireless, committed, dedicated. These are just some of the adjectives used by journalists and biographers to describe this episode’s guest’s long-time fight for the rights of people with disabilities. Richard Bernstein is a justice at the Michigan Supreme Court. As a lawyer, he has fought for and won many cases against various organizations and service providers on behalf of citizens with disabilities. Many of them pro bono. But he is also a triathlete and an 18-times marathon runner. Oh, and he’s also legally blind since birth. Justice Bernstein, welcome to my podcast on inclusive. Before we dive into your legal work, please describe to our audience your career path thus far, and how you came to be a justice of the Michigan Supreme Court.

Richard Bernstein:

Well, first off, Jay, I love your podcast and I love your foundation, and I love what you do. You have enhanced so many people’s lives and had such a profound impact that I’m delighted to be a part of this. Your question is, how did you get to become a Supreme Court justice for the state of Michigan? And it’s a really interesting question because in Michigan, we elect our justices. We’re not appointed. And the reason I say quickly about the distinction between being elected versus being appointed is that if it was an appointment process, I am willing to venture that if I had gone in front of a committee, a merit selection committee, they would have said, oh my goodness, that is so inspirational that this person is blind and they want to be a Supreme Court justice, and I’m so inspired.

Richard Bernstein:

But as soon as you leave the room and the door is closed, I am willing to bet that the conversation would take a totally different tone. And it would be that of, wow, as incredibly exciting as this is and as inspired as this is, it’s just not going to work. We don’t want to go with someone who has a disability because it’s just going to make it too challenging and too difficult for the Court to have to sustain that. And I think Jay, when you ask about the career path, the reasons that I love my state is because when you take the message to the people, and you allow for the 11 million people who live in the great state of Michigan to decide who is going to represent them on the state’s highest court, they saw blindness as an advantage because they came to realize as voters that you understood struggle, that you understood hardship, that you understood difficulty.

Richard Bernstein:

And as a result of that understanding, you were able to empathize and understand and relate to the challenges and to the hardships and to the difficulties that real people have to face and have to contend with each and every day. I insisted that my campaign slogan be Blind Justice. That was my slogan. It’s hokey, it’s silly, but that was the whole idea. The fact that I was putting it out there and emphasizing blindness and doing it in a fun way, I made it the kind of thing where you felt comfortable asking the questions that I needed people to ask. I needed labor and farmers and truck drivers and all different people across the state to ask the questions that they needed to ask, which is, how can you be a judge? How can you keep up with the materials? How can you understand a crime scene?

Richard Bernstein:

How can you see people’s facial expressions? People are going to have genuine interest in how you can perform your duties as a Supreme Court justice. But I think Jay, the key to it is, as long as you do it in a fun way, as long as you make people feel comfortable and can just have a conversation with you and ask you the questions that they need to have asked, then what usually happens is, the people that are doubters because they assume that this is something that you’re not going to be able to do, once you assuage all of their concerns, will become your most ferocious supporters. Because they felt that it applied to them, and they felt that having someone who’s blind in this position who can understand and identify hardship and struggle would mean that you could appreciate their issues and their concerns, and represent what they feel is important.

Jay Ruderman:

You were involved in many notable legal cases as an attorney before you became a Supreme Court justice in Michigan. So let’s go all the way back to 2004. And a federal lawsuit that you were involved in against the Detroit Department of Transportation for failure to serve people with disabilities. Can you talk a little bit about this case and specifically why proper transportation is so vital for people with disabilities?

Richard Bernstein:

Right. Well, I’m so glad you ask that Jay, because this was a really … This was my first big case, but it was without a doubt unbelievably difficult. What was happening in Detroit was the buses were operating without workable wheelchair lifts. And the estimate was that about 60% … Think about that Jay, 60% of the fleet didn’t have workable lifts. And the reason I took on this case, I just remember kind of how this all happened. I was at a meeting once, and it was a meeting of people with disabilities. And I couldn’t understand why nobody was there. I showed up at this meeting and I don’t know, maybe two other people were there, but it was supposed to be a large meeting. And I asked the organizer, I said, well, where is everybody? Why isn’t anybody at this meeting? Why aren’t people here? And they said, oh, well, because the buses don’t have workable wheelchair lifts.

Richard Bernstein:

So I’m sure they’re trying to get here, but they can’t. And then I started to realize that, oh my God, you had veterans that basically were in many situations not leaving their homes during the winter in Detroit because they were too worried that if they started a journey and got stuck in a transfer that the bus would come along that wouldn’t have a wheelchair lift. They would wind up spending entire evenings in bus shelters. At that time there was a mayor, his name was Kwame Kilpatrick. And I remember going and talking to his people and just saying, look, we’ve got to do something to help folks with disabilities with special needs. You can’t leave them stranded on the streets. This is crazy. And their response, which was a typical response was … And I’m just going to be candid.

Richard Bernstein:

Their response was, they didn’t care. And the reason they didn’t care is, why does government care? Why do people act? It’s because either A, politics or money, right? It’s going to be one of those two. And if you have people that are disenfranchised who aren’t really part of the political process, they’re not going to move huge numbers of voters, and then they don’t have any money, why would you listen to them? And that was what the mayor’s position was. These people aren’t going to be able to do anything to me. They’re not really relevant. And they’re not going to be very impactful in terms of his administration. So he didn’t care. He literally didn’t care. So I sued him, and I put it into federal court. And what made it so hard was it got so personal between me and the mayor.

Richard Bernstein:

It was just so unnecessary. He would come and have press conferences. And he would say to people in Detroit, we here in Detroit, we are not going to allow Richard Bernstein from the town of Birmingham to come into our city and to come in to Detroit, Michigan and tell us how to run our city. And he would say, we got to rise up against people like Mr. Bernstein. He’d say, I’m sorry that many of you are going to lose your jobs, but you know what, if you’re angry, you need to go and take it out on Mr. Bernstein out in Birmingham, Michigan. You know what ultimately happened? Nobody in Detroit bought it. Nobody signed on to his rhetoric. No one liked it. In fact, the NAACP and all the major ministers and community leaders were infuriated by his conduct.

Richard Bernstein:

And basically came out against the mayor and said not only what he was doing was inappropriate, but they fully support what I was doing because I was trying to make things better for the residents and the community members of Detroit. And it went on for a while. But ultimately what happened was that in the end, the Department of Justice intervened and brought in federal oversight. And now what’s great about the city of Detroit is the buses work beautifully. I can’t say they’re perfect because nothing is going to be perfect, but you don’t have these issues. They bought all new buses. They retrained the drivers. Ridership according to the Detroit Free Press went up by 20% because once they made it accessible that everyone could use it, basically the ridership increased dramatically to the point where the ridership ultimately allowed for them to cover any of the related expenses that came with the new equipment and the new training.

Richard Bernstein:

And now people don’t stay in their houses. They go out. They’re out and about, they’re doing things. They’re going to work. It’s not just going to the doctor. Life is more about not just that. They have work, social engagements, seeing friends, doing things. They’re using public transportation. So lawyers, if you really care about civil rights and you really want to make a difference, you can do this in a proper way.

Jay Ruderman:

Right. Let me bring you on to 2008 in a lawsuit that you were involved with on behalf of Michigan Paralyzed Veterans of America against the University of Michigan to make it’s stadium accessible for people in wheelchairs. And this came about after a 226 million renovation for the university that failed to have enough seats for people with disabilities.

Richard Bernstein:

So Jay, the thing that arises out of that, that I think is significant is the question and the discussion about diversity. And what I found at the University of Michigan with that case was that when they discussed the concept of diversity, they did not deliberately include people with disabilities in that discussion. And I think Jay, what happened in that case was a blatant example of it, right? The University of Michigan had spent well over $200 million to renovate the stadium, and this wasn’t an accident. They deliberately weren’t going to make the stadium accessible. And in fact, the university was going so far as to I would say, do it in a very callous manner. They knew that under the ADA, there was a question about what constitutes a repair versus what constitutes an alteration. If you take an existing structure and you repair it, you don’t have to bring it to compliance.

Richard Bernstein:

If you alter it, you do. And the university deliberately did this. The university would deliberately basically do separate little mini projects. They would say, okay well, we’re fixing the bleachers. We’re putting in new cement. We’re putting in new bathrooms. We’re putting in new concession. But they would have the regents vote on it separately so that they could deliberately state that these were separate repairs, right? That they were just basically a conglomeration of repairs. And ultimately what they were doing … Think about this. The University of Michigan, this bastion of progressive ideology is basically literally putting the entire ADA at risk. And the reason Jay that that was the case was because if the university had been successful in what it was trying to do, what would have happened is that any commercial facility would have simply said, we are making repairs to our existing structure.

Richard Bernstein:

We’re not altering it. So we’re just putting in new lights, new flooring, new glass, new concession stands, new whatever. And they’d just do it separately and say, well no, no, these are just mini repairs. They’re not alterations, they’re just mini repairs. So that would have been devastating to basically all commercial facilities, because people with disabilities literally would not have had access to commercial facilities. That’s why I had to sue my own university was because what they were doing was going to be so detrimental to the overall lives of the people that we care so much about to allow for them to go to malls and to go to restaurants and to go to hotels and to do any kind of commercial activity. And then ultimately the department of justice also intervened on that case because of the federal conceptual notion of it was so intensive that this required federal intervention as well. That actually then resulted in this establishing all the guidelines and precedence for any commercial facility in the United States as it pertains to the issue of alteration versus repair. So, that was established by this case.

Jay Ruderman:

So you started out your career as an attorney in a small practice, but you were engaged in many cases as taking on a lot of pro bono cases. Cases that you were not making money off of. Can you tell us a little bit about that process, about how someone who hangs out a shingle and needs to support the firm was able to go and take on so many pro bono cases?

Richard Bernstein:

Well, this is going to sound unusual, but it goes back to kind of my spiritual belief system. When I was in law school, I was struggling to survive. And I was struggling to literally stay in law school. Each day was a hardship. And there were days that I didn’t think I was going to make it. There were days I didn’t think I was going to get through it. Especially during those cold Chicago winters. And what happened was it was a cold February night, and I know this will sound crazy, but I made a promise. I said, [inaudible 00:15:34] look, if you give me the chance to become a lawyer, this is my lifelong dream. This is the thing I want more than anything else. But if you give me this opportunity, I promise that I will use it to do something meaningful, and that I will use it to do something good. But I need you to help me to get through this.

Richard Bernstein:

And if you could just simply allow me to graduate, I will dedicate my professional career to representing people with disabilities and special needs who otherwise don’t have access to our judicial system. And so ultimately, miraculously, I actually did graduate from law school, which was miraculous. Even more miraculously, I passed the bar, which was even far more miraculous. And then I went back to my family’s law firm and I said, look, I know you’re going to think this is crazy, but a promise is a promise. And thankfully my family was supportive, and we started our law firm’s public services division.

Richard Bernstein:

We created a public services division. We started the public services division and basically represented folks who otherwise simply didn’t have access to the judicial system. And a lot of it is when you get involved in these kinds of things, a lot of it is that you don’t have to take on the University of Michigan. You don’t have to take on the city of Detroit. You don’t have to take on some massive entity that’s going to crush you. What you have to do is find an injustice, or help a person in some way. And just be willing to take on a case you otherwise wouldn’t have taken, or get involved with something that you otherwise wouldn’t have done. And you can make all the difference in the world.

Jay Ruderman:

I’m going to jump to sports. You’re a marathoner.

Richard Bernstein:

Right.

Jay Ruderman:

And tell us about your first marathon. How did you decide to run a marathon with everything going on in your life and how busy it is, tell me the role that marathoning plays in your life.

Richard Bernstein:

So Jay, athletics is everything to me. The reason is, is that growing up as a blind kid, you don’t have a lot of self-confidence. I’m speaking for myself. I’m not speaking for others. I’m just speaking for me. And I had a huge issue with confidence, huge issue. I was one of those awkward people who just couldn’t figure out where to fit in. And what I used to do is I’d go to gym and I couldn’t participate. I couldn’t do anything. So they would just put me on the sideline and I would just sit there. And how do you think you think of yourself? Do you think you’re cool? Do you think you’re a leader? Do you think you’re someone that people look up to? No. Who are the leaders? It’s always the athletes.

Richard Bernstein:

Those are the people that get the respect and the admiration. It’s always the athletes. And then I joined a program called Achilles, a guy named Dick Traum, amazing person. He called me and he said, you know Richard, I was introduced to you by some folks. And I think you should join Achilles. And Achilles is dedicated to people like myself who have severe disabilities. And the idea is that you should be able to participate in athletics. And it’s not about winning or losing. It’s not about … But it’s doing endurance competitions. It’s about doing things that are hard. It’s about doing things that are painful. It’s about doing things that have a lot of struggle, have a lot of difficulty. It’s about doing things that are just intense, right? So Dick said, I want you to become a part of Achilles. I remember I joined and I was like, oh my God, what is this?

Richard Bernstein:

This is insane. I’d never run before, I didn’t do any athletic before. And they gave me a team of guides and we went running in the park, and they would give directional cues. Hard right, soft right, hard left, soft left. And I’d have a tether and I’d hold one side of the tether, the guide would hold the other part. You could feel the motion of their body. And honestly Jay, what it taught me was invaluable because we came, I did one mile the first day. And then Dick said, okay, you’re going to be back here and you’ll do another. We’re going to come back and do this again. The next day I did two miles. Then I did three. If Dick Traum had told me that I was going to be an Ironman at my first day of Achilles, I would have left and never come back. But he didn’t say that. He didn’t even tell me I was going to be a marathoner.

Richard Bernstein:

He just said, let’s do it one mile at a time. And before you know it, I had learned how to run with Achilles. I had learned how to do this. I was up to 10 miles, then 15 miles and then 18 miles on these long runs. I was like the karate kid. We were training without really knowing that we were training. Then finally Dick said to me, he says, you know Rick, I’d like you to do the New York City marathon. I want you to do it. And I did. And then I ran one marathon, then two, then three, then five and 10, then 15, and eventually I got to 24 marathons. And then did a full Ironman, which is a 2.4 mile swim, 112 mile bike, and a 26.2 mile run. But the answer to your question about athletics, which is why it is so unbelievably essential for people with disabilities is because after I did a marathon, I started suing everybody.

Richard Bernstein:

Now what I mean by that is, I had a certain sense of confidence that I now had that I didn’t have before. Because once you can do a marathon, you can literally do anything. It’s that simple. You work through a marathon, nothing else is as difficult. And again, the Ironman is a whole 'nother kind of extreme level. But the point of a marathon is that once you get through a marathon, you literally will have the strength to get through anything. Suing the city of Detroit isn’t really a big deal because I got through a marathon. So how hard can that be? And it literally affects every decision you make because you come at it with a different level of understanding about yourself and your ability that you never had before. Because athletics gives strength, strength breeds confidence, confidence breeds power, and power breeds results.

Jay Ruderman:

So I want to bring you to a traumatic incident you had in 2012, when you were severely injured by a speeding cyclist in Central Park in New York City. Can you tell us about that accident and what it did to you, and how you moved on from that accident to again, starting to run after that?

Richard Bernstein:

I was walking in Central Park. I was in the pedestrian lane and I’ve memorized Central Park. And I’m there so often I’ve memorized the loop. I know the loop cold, so I can walk independently. I don’t need a guide. I can do it on my own. I can just take my cane and go for a walk. And as I was walking, a bicyclist was going, and he was going over 35 miles an hour. He was going really fast. And he veered into the pedestrian lane where I was, and he hit me directly in the back. And it was a catastrophic injury. It was absolutely catastrophic. I was at New York’s Mount Sinai Hospital for over 10 weeks. And the thing that was so hard about it Jay was I had to learn how to do everything all over again from the very beginning.

Richard Bernstein:

And that was so hard. At that point I was an Ironman. I had done 17 marathons and literally I couldn’t use the bathroom. I couldn’t do a single thing for myself. There was not a single thing that I could do on my own. I had to be lifted. I had to be carried. It was just really something. And when I was in the hospital, I had to find a sense of purpose to this. I had to find a sense of mission. I couldn’t just allow this to be some sad thing. I had to find a purpose. I had to find something where I could say, okay, this happened, but it happened for a reason. And I can take that reason and translate it into something meaningful. So I sued the city of New York. I didn’t ask them for any money.

Richard Bernstein:

I didn’t ask them for a dime or a nickel or a cent. I didn’t ask them for a single thing. I just wanted them to fix the park. And I wanted them to make the park safer and make the park better. I didn’t ask them for a single, nothing. I just wanted the park safer. And God did we fight. It was another fight that I did from my hospital bed. But in the end, the city actually wound up making some great changes to the park. It’s still not perfect, but they took the traffic out. They resurfaced the roads, so now it’s safe to walk on. They’ve put in all new traffic signals. And in fact, the Conservancy is now looking at the idea, hopefully after the pandemic of adding tunnels within the park to get people across the road without having to travel across the busy lanes with the bicyclist.

Jay Ruderman:

Well Richard, it sounds like you have found a way to take every adversity and make it into a positive. So that’s something to other people can I think gain from, from your experience. I just want to end with you travel a lot. We’re talking now and you’re in Dubai, but you’ve been to Ecuador and Australia and many different countries in Israel. When you go to … Is it difficult for you to get around in foreign countries? And do you find certain countries to be more accommodating for people with disabilities?

Richard Bernstein:

So the answer is that ultimately … And I’ll just bring in the pandemic. For me, the pandemic has been just devastating. I’m a person that works through things and deals with a lot of things. But when we had the lockdown in Michigan, it was excruciating. It was excruciating because people didn’t take into account that people like me who are blind need food. And when you shut everything down and you shut Uber down, and you tell people that you can’t go out of your house and you can’t do stuff, in my situation, I was living in an apartment building, but that had surges of Corona cases. So people didn’t want to … You couldn’t ask people to come and help you because you didn’t want them to have to be exposed to you or come into your building.

Richard Bernstein:

And so, I was on my own, because it was understandably because my building had Corona. I will tell you Jay, that it’s almost like you couldn’t have created a worst scenario for people with disabilities than a pandemic. Just to give you an example, I had a hard time getting food. I would try to get food, but the grocery stores would tell you that they would deliver it to you, but it would take a month. It takes a month? What can I do? And then when you made it so that you couldn’t use Uber, what am I supposed to do? And then what they did was all of the restaurants that became takeaway would require you to use apps, but the apps weren’t accessible. So I couldn’t use the apps. So there was a store in Birmingham, and I love this store. And I’ll always be grateful to them. It’s called Beyond Juice.

Richard Bernstein:

And I went to them and I said, look, I’m having trouble getting food, and I really need your help. I need you to help me figure out a way we can do this. I need to come here in person and give you my credit card and have an in-person transaction. I can’t do this without doing this in-person. And they had to get special permission from the health department. It just became ridiculous. And for one month Jay, I had the same thing every day. I had a salad and a smoothie because that was all I could get for food. And when they were closed on Sunday, I would have people eventually, if someone was going to the grocery store and they were young, they were young enough that they would be willing to take the risk.

Richard Bernstein:

I’d asked them, can you buy me something that’s non-perishable? I would say, can you buy me peanut butter? So, Mondays to Saturday I would eat the Birmingham salad from Beyond Juice. And then on Sunday, because they were closed, I would eat peanut butter just out of the jar because that was what I would eat was peanut butter. But answering your question about travel and the pandemic is that people who are blind like me need people. We can’t function without people. I can’t do things without people. If I’m crossing a street, someone’s going to come and grab your arm and help you cross the street. The isolation is death for somebody like myself. Then look, I’m just going to say this in a very direct way. Being from Detroit, I had five close friends, five close friends who died from Corona.

Richard Bernstein:

I share that with Jay because I don’t want people to think that I minimize at all the dangers and the difficulties that Corona presents. I don’t want people to think for a second that I don’t understand, and don’t appreciate, and don’t recognize the severity of Corona. I get it. I understand it. But having said that, and having made that acknowledgement, there has to be a balance. And the balance has to be that there are people that are just being left in the cold. And there are people that are not going to survive this unless society at a certain point, when the vaccine has been distributed to enough people, and we just certain point, this has to end. And what I mean by that is that this has to come to a point where enough people are vaccinated, where we reach a point where the risk of Corona is now balanced with the dangers and hardships that it’s presenting in other facets, which is, I cannot live under the current scenario that is happening.

Richard Bernstein:

I’m here in the United Arabs Emirates. You ask, where is the best place to go? For me, the absolute best place to be in the Middle East. Not even a question. In the United States, what has wound up happening is that people have now been conditioned to see everybody as a threat. Everyone is now a threat. So for someone like me, when I want to go, I had to, I had to go to CVS to buy some things. And I don’t want to have to bring someone to CVS. I’d like to just go to CVS independently. But Jay, when I go to CVS, I can’t approach someone at CVS. If I walk up to you at CVS and say, hey, can you help me find some toothpaste? Can you help me find the deodorant?

Richard Bernstein:

Can you let me find some mouthwash? You’re going to flip out. You’re going to … Because we have done a phenomenal job of making people scared to the point where someone like me needs assistance or needs help, that people are going to run from you. They’re going to run. They’re not going to come close to you. You want to cross the street and you need help? No one’s going to come over to help you because they’re going to see you as a threat. They’re going to see you as a danger. They’re not going to want to be close to you because we’re so big on social distancing. And I get it. I understand it. I respect it. But we’ve gone to such an extreme with it that what’s wound up happening is that someone like myself who is trying to cross the street or trying to do anything independently, or coming up on a flight of stairs, people won’t come to you.

Richard Bernstein:

And I love being in the Middle East. I love the UAE. I love Israel. I love any Middle Eastern country. And the reason why J is because here in the Middle East, people have a balance. And what that means is the Middle East culture is one of warmth. It’s one of kindness. It’s one of just genuine hosting and hospitality. In the Middle East, yes, people, they will wear masks and they will be cognitive. And they will be respectful of the challenges that people are facing. They get it. They understand it.

Richard Bernstein:

But in the Middle East, people do not do social distancing. They just don’t do it. No matter what you tell them, no matter how hard you want them to do it, they’re not going to do it. So even with the Corona here in the Middle East, if somebody sees you struggling, they will run to you and they will come to you. They will assist you. They will do anything for you. So the Middle East, the instinctive nature of Middle Eastern people to be of assistance is so ingrained that it usurps the social distancing concepts and confines that have kind of taken over the United States.

Jay Ruderman:

Richard, it’s been such a pleasure to speak with you. You’re a good friend. We’ve known each other for a while. It’s a powerful message that you’ve given us throughout the podcast. But especially in the end about Corona and the impact on you and where you fear feel most safe. I don’t know if higher office is in your future, but if it is, I think you have a great chance of success. So I want to really thank you for your time. This has been a great discussion. And wish you much health and safety in the coming months.

Richard Bernstein:

Jay, thank you so much. And thanks to your engineers and your team that put this all together. And I look forward to talking to you again soon. So you guys stay safe and God bless.

Speaker 3:

All Inclusive is a production of the Ruderman Family Foundation. Our key mission is the full inclusion of people with disabilities in all aspects of society. You can find All Inclusive on Apple podcast, Google Play, Spotify and Stitcher. To view the show notes, transcripts, or to learn more go to Rudermanfoundation.org/allinclusive. Have an idea for a podcast? Be sure to tweet @JayRuderman.

‍

Jim Langevin:
I believe that where there’s a will, there’s a way. That even if you have maybe philosophical differences about the size of government or whether or not government should be active or passive, there’s always a way to find common ground on something. We just have to have that primary focus of wanting to compromise, wanting to find that common ground. And we can do it.

Announcer:
All Inclusive, a podcast on inclusion, innovation, and social justice with Jay Ruderman.

Jay Ruderman:
Hi, I’m Jay Ruderman, and this is All Inclusive, a podcast focused on inclusion, innovation and social justice. Today in the podcast, I have the privilege and honor to speak with Congressman Jim Landrigan, who’s been serving as the United States Representative for Rhode Island Second Congressional District for 20 years, since 2001. Jim has been very active in many different areas. For example, cybersecurity readiness and matters relating to our armed services.

Jay Ruderman:
But in this conversation we’ll be focusing on his work on the laws and reforms regarding people with disabilities. This is a topic dear to Jim’s heart as he is also the first quadriplegic to serve in the US House of Representatives.

Jay Ruderman:
Hi, Jim, happy to have you here and welcome to my podcast. So I would like to talk to you a little bit about what happened at the beginning of 2021, but before I get to that, I want to bring you back to a particularly sensitive time in your life back to 1980 and a day that changed your life forever. Can you tell me a little bit about what happened to you at that time?

Jim Langevin:
Sure. Well, early on in my life, my early teenage years, I had been involved in a police cadet program in my local community, Warwick, Rhode Island, and I really fell in love with law enforcement. From January to June we would take classes about different aspects of police work. And then in June we’d take a test and the top 10 high scores got a summer job for the summer. And I’d been involved with the program for about four years and I thought my career path in life would be becoming a police officer and I hoped perhaps, maybe someday to go on to become an FBI agent. But as life often happens it has other plans for you and that certainly was the case in my circumstance.

Jim Langevin:
I was getting ready to go on my shift one afternoon, it was a Friday afternoon in August, 1980, and walked into the police locker room. I was getting ready to go on my shift and my fellow cadet and I were talking to two police officers. One of them had just purchased a new weapon, the other officer asked to look at it and not realizing it was loaded the officer pulled the trigger and there was a bullet already in the pipe of the gun and the gun went off, bullet actually ricocheted off a locker and went through my neck and, unfortunately, it’s severed my spinal cord and I’ve been paralyzed ever since.

Jay Ruderman:
I can’t even imagine what you went through on a personal level. Can you tell us how you went from that incident, which obviously changed your life, to your involvement in politics?

Jim Langevin:
Well, I was very fortunate to have an incredible community that rallied behind my family and I at a time when we needed it the most and it made a profound difference. And no doubt I recovered because of my family, my faith and my community, and those three things coming together provided an incredible support system that gave me the confidence to and the really desire to want to recover and do something positive with my life. I saw how a community could make a difference in someone’s life when you had a group of people coming together with a single-minded determination to make a difference in someone’s life and how it could effect change. And, as I said, I wanted to get back if I ever could. Someone had suggested that I might think about getting involved in public service, in government or politics at some point.

Jim Langevin:
And someone suggested I run and I thought about it. And I did in the course of doing that, I found that not only did I feel like I was giving back, but I also found something that I really enjoyed and started to develop a new passion for. I served as both delegate and secretary at the constitutional convention. Then a couple of years later the opportunity came about for me to run for state representative for a state rep that was retiring in my neighborhood. I ran and was elected and I served in the general assembly as a state rep for six years and then was on the ballot statewide to run for secretary of state and was elected there and served there as secretary of state for the next six years before running for Congress.

Jay Ruderman:
So, Jim, let’s talk about politics because you’ve been involved in politics for a long time and you’ve been in Congress for a long time, tell us how Congress has changed, particularly the interaction between the parties and how it was when you first got into Congress and how it is in today’s Congress?

Jim Langevin:
Yeah. So Congress certainly has changed a lot. It’s become more partisan unfortunately. I thought it could be pretty contentious when I first arrived and that was the year that, of course, Al Gore was defeated for president by George W. Bush and that was really a big disappointment because after the eight years of President Clinton and seeing a balanced budget and a budget surplus as far as the eye could see, saw great prospects for things that could be done for the country with those policies continuing. Unfortunately, that didn’t happen. It was George Bush that was elected president, but he was president. I went to the inauguration. I was honored to be there. And I said, “Well, it’s a new day and we’re going to make the most of it.” And I pride myself on solving problems, wanting to solve problems anyway, and finding common sense solutions to issues that are affecting families or my community. The process was more partisan than I had expected. To be honest with you now, looking back, 20 years ago, those were the good old days-

Jay Ruderman:
Right.

Jim Langevin:
… in comparison to how partisan it’s become now, unfortunately,

Jay Ruderman:
I know you’re a very well respected member of Congress and especially liked by members of your party. Do you have interactions with Republicans on a day-to-day basis and on Capitol Hill?

Jim Langevin:
I do. And I pride myself on being one of the most bipartisan members of Congress. At least I would like to think I am. Although I have differences with many of my Republican colleagues, on every major issue that I’m working on I can point to a Republican that I’m working with, and things like cybersecurity, which I spend a lot of time on that issue, and career elective education and on things like disabilities issues, I’ve got someone like Don Young or Cathy McMorris Rodgers that I work with on issues or Susan Collins, of course, the aisle on the Senate side. She and I recently worked on a Lifespan Respite Care Bill together.

Jim Langevin:
So a lot of the bipartisanship doesn’t get covered in the press unfortunately. I guess it’s the really old saying, “If it doesn’t bleed, it doesn’t lead, it’s not controversial.” We have members of Congress working together. It seems unfortunate that doesn’t get adequate coverage, but it does happen and I’m not the only one. There are other members of Congress that we’ve worked together and even, like I said, the Cares Act funding and other Bills, that many of them were bipartisan.

Jay Ruderman:
So I want to get into some issues of disability, but before I do that, because I’m personally very interested in politics and follow it very closely, obviously, you’re a member of the Democratic Party, which now controls both houses of Congress and in the presidency, how do you view, as someone who’s on the inside, what is happening in the Republican Party? You mentioned leader McCarthy who is today meeting with former President Trump. It seems like there’s a tension within that party about which direction it’s going to go in. What are your insights into that?

Jim Langevin:
Yeah, no doubt there is tension in the Republican party and they’re almost … The divisions, [inaudible 00:09:05] the traditional Republicans, the Ronald Reagan Republicans that believe in smaller government, lower taxes. And then you’ve got the Trump Republicans that in many ways just want to … They don’t respect the norms of politics and process and in many ways have tried to break those old norms and would rather break the system rather than fix the system or work within it. And it’s caused real damage to the core foundations of our democracy. And it really came to a head on January 6th when there was this angry mob that stormed at the Capitol and tried to overthrow the government.

Jay Ruderman:
So I want to talk a little bit about that. On January 6th during the insurrection were you inside the Capitol Building and what was it like for you while it was unfolding?

Jim Langevin:
I was not in the Capitol, thankfully. I was actually in my office watching the proceedings on television from my office, and there were only 44 members of the House and the Senate allowed on the floor at any one time and that was because of Corona virus. So they were going to rotate us in throughout the day and I hadn’t got the go ahead to head over yet. Around two o’clock or so the House went into recess a couple of times. It was a little odd. I didn’t realize … I wasn’t expecting them to go into recess but just to keep going right straight through, but [inaudible 00:10:34] happening is that they recessed a couple of times, and then we started getting alerts from the Capitol police, both by email and text that, “The Capitol had been breached. Lock your doors, shelter in place until the situation gets resolved.”

Jim Langevin:
Then we turned over to MSNBC and you could see what was happening: the angry mob, the crowds streaming into the Capitol. We saw one woman being brought out on a stretcher, clearly had some type of wound. We assumed it to be a gunshot from the amount of blood that we could see and the bandaging on the wound. It was really just horrific and just so sad to see that this was actually happening live as we were there watching it.

Jim Langevin:
But I wasn’t per se worried. I had to believe that the Capitol police would eventually get control of the situation, whether it’s with just the Capitol police or DC Metro police being called in or the national guard that eventually this insurrection would be squashed and proper authorities would take control of the situation. But it was unnerving. There’s no doubt to be watching this. And it made me both sad and angry at the same time because the further away I get from it, the more angry I get that we could have had a president in the White House that was basically inciting when I see this angry mob, this insurrection.

Jay Ruderman:
Do you hold former President Trump responsible for what happened?

Jim Langevin:
I do. And I think Mitch McConnell summed it up the best. The president assembled the mob and he, through his words incited the riot, the angry mob. It’s what we all witnessed, and words matter. And President Trump has a very loyal, hardcore following and they took him at his word when he said, “You fight like hell. You’re never going to take back your government through the weakness. March down to the Capitol. I’ll be with you.” It was just so irresponsible and it just did great damage to our country. And I also don’t think it’s over, unfortunately. You may have heard just last night that the Department of Homeland Security has issued a nationwide bulletin, an alert, warning of possible anti-government activity that the riot on the 6th actually emboldened people that are anti-government. And so it does trouble me.

Jay Ruderman:
So I want to move into the Lifespan Respite Care Act, which you authored in 2002 and it was signed into law in 2006. For the benefit of the listeners, this Act authorizes budgets for community-based services, for family, caregivers of children, or adults of all ages with disabilities. As the Act name implies, it eases the burden of family members who take care of their loved ones. How do you feel the Act fosters independence and inclusion in society?

Jim Langevin:
So the Lifespan Respite Care Act, which I’m very proud to be involved with and have my name associated with that Act, it goes to directly supporting the caregivers. I know how important the people are that take care of me and help me to live an independent life. My CNAs are just invaluable people, and there are many caregivers throughout the country that do this kind of work for a family member, whether it’s an elderly parent or a sick child, but they may not have much help and they can easily get overwhelmed and burnt out. You think of it, it’s a sole caregiver in a household. Imagine this: if it’s a single parent who is perhaps trying to work, keep a roof over their head and food on the table, but at the same time having to care for the elderly parent or a sick child, and do they ever get a break and who helps them?

Jim Langevin:
So the Lifespan Respite Care Act promotes independence by helping individuals receive the care and support that they need at home. And if we had to put a dollar figure to this uncompensated care, it would probably be around … Last estimate was around $470 billion and [inaudible 00:15:07] each year. For many of these caregivers, access to respite remains elusive. So by promoting access to respite services, we ensure that family caregivers are able to take care of their own needs while continuing the rewarding, but often challenging, work of assisting their loved one.

Jay Ruderman:
So on a personal level, how did your disability impact your family in the beginning?

Jim Langevin:
So it definitely was life altering for my entire family. My parents initially became caregivers themselves, even my brothers at the time. I had a young sister who came along, believe it or not just three months before my accident. So here’s my parents dealing with my situation and also having to take care of an infant. And so it just changed the family dynamics certainly, puts added pressures on areas you didn’t think, financially and in other ways.

Jim Langevin:
Eventually my mom was really insistent on this. She realized that if I was going to lead any kind of an independent life, that I was going to have to have help from the outside to assist me with just my basic daily living needs: getting up in the morning and showering and getting dressed and getting out the door and having a driver so that I could get around to get to places where I need to be. And so that definitely changed our family dynamic, that my family was there for me when I needed it the most, both emotionally, but also physically.

Jay Ruderman:
So I’d like to talk about when the law first came into existence and you first worked on it, you were a fairly new member of Congress. Can you talk about that experience of legislating this Act when you’re fairly new?

Jim Langevin:
Yeah. So the original Lifespan Respite Care Act was a priority for members of the health and disability community around the time that I came to Congress. And it also happened to be an issue that then Senator Hillary Clinton was interested in addressing. So showing not only could I relate to the inherent challenges of family caregiving from the experiences of my own family after my accident, but I had constituents who were facing similar challenges, balancing responsibilities of caring for a loved one with a chronic condition and taking care of themselves and they needed help. And we were looking for ways of supporting these unsung heroes because, in most cases, the alternative was more costly institutional care. So it seemed like a win-win to give families the tools to stay together and reduce the cost on the system but we’d also reduce the pressure on the caregiver themselves.

Jim Langevin:
So Hillary led the Senate version of the Bill and I partnered with my House colleagues to lead the House version. It wasn’t without its challenges. These programs existed in some States but not for others. It was a a patchwork approach. They were often specific to certain populations, and we were attempting to reproduce a program that worked and expanded eligibility to all families and do it in the most efficient cost of way possible. And that required, of course, educating our colleagues and fighting for programs that may not have been well known at the time.

Jay Ruderman:
So I want to jump forward to 2019 when you and several other members of Congress wanted to introduce the Lifespan Respite Care Re-authorization Act. And I’d like to get back to the issue of how you work with members of the other party, of the Republican Party, in order to move something like this forward?

Jim Langevin:
Yeah. So initially when we first introduced the … I had introduced the Bill with my name in the lead, and then Congressman Mike Ferguson from New Jersey was the Republican lead, but they were in the majority. And so after a couple of years of doing this, it became obvious that the Republicans weren’t going to allow the Bill to pass with a Democrat’s name in the lead. So Mike and I spoke, we agreed to swap order and that his name would be first and I would be second. And lo and behold, we wound up getting the Bill passed. So, for me, it was about getting the issue passed and act into law and helping people. And that’s what we did. Fast forward now to 2019, worked with colleagues again to get this Bill passed. And then Senator Susan Collins was the lead Republican on the Senate side.

Jim Langevin:
So, basically we needed to increase the funding levels, the authorized funding levels. I had wanted to do $200 million authorization over five years. We were not able to get that, but Senator Collins’ version had a $50 million authorization, and we did that. And, basically, the Bill ensures that the Lifespan Respite Care program continues to be able to expand and enhance respite services across States. It works to include coordination and dissemination of respite services, streamline access to programs, fill gaps in service where necessary and also improve the overall quality of the respite services currently available and can by authorized $10 million a year in funding through 2024.

Jim Langevin:
So the Bill had passed the House, passed the Senate. We had to come up with a compromised version, and I spoke with Senator Collins and I told her about my history with the Bill and I asked her if she would be okay if my name were in the lead this time since we both cared passionately about the Bill. And she was gracious, incredibly gracious, and she said, “Absolutely.” That meant a lot to me personally. She didn’t have to do that, but she’s a very gracious woman. And so, as a team, we wound up passing this Bill together and I’m very much grateful and appreciative for both her leadership on this, but also working with me so closely to get it across the finish line.

Jay Ruderman:
So, Jim, in an interview on CNN in 2018, you said that, “Disabilities have a unique power to unite us.” Why do you feel that way?

Jim Langevin:
Yeah, because I think every family or every member of Congress is directly impacted somehow or another. Either they directly have someone in their family, whether it’s a child or a relative that is dealing with some form of disability or they certainly have close friends and maybe children of close friends that are dealing with a disability, and they understand in some way the aspect of the challenge, and challenges are involved. And so if we pass laws that help to bring down those barriers and improve people’s lives, we really have an obligation to do it. And that was what was so meaningful about the passage of the Americans with Disabilities Act. That passed because, in a bipartisan way, members of Congress came together and said, “People with disabilities have the right to live active, independent lives in their communities. Reasonable accommodations shouldn’t be just a courtesy, but it should in fact be a civil right.” And the Americans with Disabilities Act was the civil rights law of our time.

Jim Langevin:
But I know what a profound impact it has had in my own life. I was injured about a full 10 years before the ADA was passed. So I remember what the world was like before ADA and what it’s been like after ADA. And it’s made a profound impact in my life. And without it, as I told President Herbert Walker Bush, when I met with him, and George W. Bush, in the Oval Office for the signing of the Americans with the ADA Amendments Act, I thanked him for his leadership for passing and signing the ADA into law, because without it I probably, most likely, would not be in Congress today.

Jay Ruderman:
So you’ve said that individuals with disabilities remain one of our nation’s greatest untapped resources, and certainly politically with 20% of our population in the United States or the world’s population, you would think that the disability community would be one of the greatest political forces, but it’s not quite there yet. Do you have any feelings on that?

Jim Langevin:
Yeah. And the tens of millions of people with disabilities that are out there that can be registered voters are registered voters, I think could and should have a much bigger impact on the political process than we’re we’re having right now. So we’ve got to continue to advocate for people with disabilities, to get registered to vote, become and be politically active, run for office, be involved in campaigns. But you think of all the talent that the world is denied when there are barriers that exist that prevent people with disabilities from fully participating in society or fully participating in the job market.

Jim Langevin:
Perhaps if there’s one, maybe silver lining, that’s come out of this terrible COVID virus situation we’ve been combating, is that we’ve had to change the way we work and tele-work now becomes the new norm. And I hope many of the things that companies have experienced where they’ve had to adapt because of the current circumstances we’re in, that many of those lessons will be retained and those practices will be retained. And maybe that’s going to be a catalyst to allow more doors of opportunity to be open to people with disabilities.

Jay Ruderman:
So, Jim, in the past, some of our leaders have gone to great lengths to hide their physical disabilities. I’m thinking of a President Franklin Roosevelt who did not allow himself to be photographed in a wheelchair or with braces on his legs. But I think that the situation has changed today for people such as yourself. And I’m thinking of other members of Congress, some of whom are on the other side of the aisle, who you probably don’t agree with at all, but I’m seeing more people with disabilities being elected to Congress. Why do you think that change came about, even though it took such a long time for it to happen?

Jim Langevin:
Yeah. I think eventually when barriers are brought down and opportunities are presented to people and they want to take advantage of all that life has to offer, people are going to put themselves out there as candidates. I know that’s happened on different levels, and we need to see more people with disabilities putting themselves out there as candidates, working on campaigns as well, because I want Congress to look like society just as we want diversity. I think we’re stronger when we have diversity as part of the equation, whether it’s in the workforce or in politics and in government, in the halls of Congress. And so we’re seeing more and more diversity and more women are running for office, more people of color are running for office. I want to also see more people with disabilities running for office so that Congress looks like the society we live in.

Jay Ruderman:
So you’re in a new Congress right now in the House with 435 members. Are you meeting some of these new members of Congress with disabilities or have you not yet had the chance?

Jim Langevin:
No, I have. And we have several different colleagues who have run for office. I’m thinking of one of my colleagues from Florida who served in combat as a double amputee. There’s also a new member of Congress who is a paraplegic and I just met him the other day. And so there are more people that are running but, again, it’s only a start and I’d like to see more.

Jay Ruderman:
So is it safe to say that you’re able to find some common ground, at least on a personal level, even though politically you probably disagree with almost everything that they stand for?

Jim Langevin:
Absolutely. I pride myself, as I said, of being one of the most bipartisan members of Congress. I believe that where there’s a will, there’s a way, that even if you maybe have philosophical differences about the size of government or whether or not government should be active or passive, there’s always a way to find common ground on something. As I’ve talked about, some of my colleagues I’ve done that with on cyber security or career elective education or disabilities issues. We can always find common ground. We just have to have that primary focus of wanting to compromise, wanting to find that common ground. And we can do it.

Jay Ruderman:
I’d like to end with a quote, which I think was pretty profound, but maybe you can just talk about it a little bit, that you said as a young adult trying to find his way in life that “Each lost opportunity was a reminder that I’m not like everyone else.” And tell us what that means for you? But I think that that quote, many young people can adopt that quote and really gain strength from it.

Jim Langevin:
You know there are things clearly that I’m not going to be able to do. And I realize that there’s an aspect of that I can’t control, and certainly that can be a somewhat of a source of frustration, but also every lost opportunity, if I don’t go through those doors and at least try, I realize that, “Shame on me for at least not trying to make a difference.”

Jim Langevin:
And so, although I’m mindful of things I can’t do, the limitations I have, I also don’t want to pass up incredible opportunities to make a difference. And I have the ability to make a difference for others and I don’t want to let those opportunities go by. And so I try to maximize it wherever possible on behalf of the people I represent or people around the country that find themselves in the same circumstances that I’m in. And I want to make sure that they have the opportunities to see it in every way possible.

Jay Ruderman:
Jim, I really want to thank you for your service. You’ve been such an impactful member of Congress, and I think will continue to be an impactful member of Congress. And we haven’t even talked about your role in cybersecurity and so many other security issues for the United States. But I know that, regarding disabilities, that your work has really led to a change for life in the lives of people with disabilities. As you know, our foundation is approaching our advocacy from a completely different industry and working with the entertainment industry to show disability more authentically portrayed. And I think that will have ramifications in how the stigma towards people with disabilities … So I’m happy that … We work on different fronts but all for the same purpose.

Jim Langevin:
Well, I really thank you and the Ruderman Family Foundation for the work you are doing to change the world for the better for people with disabilities. And in your way, and your organization, is bringing down barriers and opening up those doors that encourage inclusion. And I want all people to have the benefits of fully participating in their community and realizing their full potential and going after their dreams and achieving those goals in the same way that I have.

Jay Ruderman:
Well, Jim, listen, it’s been a pleasure speaking to you. You’re a good friend and, more than that, I’m honored to know you and to know someone who’s making such a difference in the world, in the lives of so many Americans.

Jim Langevin:
Thank you, Jay.

Announcer:
All inclusive is a production of the Ruderman Family Foundation. Our key mission is the full inclusion of people with disabilities in all aspects of society. You can find All Inclusive on Apple podcast, Google Play Spotify and Stitcher. To view the show notes, transcripts or to learn more, go to rudermanfoundation.org/allinclusive.

Announcer:
Have an idea for a podcast? Be sure to tweet @JayRuderman.

‍

[0:00:00] Jay Ruderman: Climbing up Mount Kilimanjaro is an accomplishment not many people in the world will ever accomplish. Now imagine you climb up the 20,000-foot peak by bear crawling up the whole way.

[0:00:18] [All Inclusive, a podcast on inclusion, innovation and social justice with Jay Ruderman.]

[0:00:28] Jay Ruderman: Hi. I’m Jay Ruderman and this is All Inclusive. My guest today is the first person to bear crawl up Mount Kilimanjaro and Mount Aconcagua. Kyle Maynard.

Kyle, welcome and I’m sure this is going to be a really interesting discussion. Maybe I can start out by just asking you a little bit about what it was like to grow up with your family and your friends and what was life like from the time you were a toddler to growing into an adult.

[0:01:06] Kyle Maynard: Yeah. To give your audience a little bit more of a perspective on my disability, so it’s congenital amputation and my arms end at the elbow and my legs end at the knee. Being born with it, I’ve never really known any other way.

[0:01:23] So my family’s attitude growing up was to try to make things as normal as possible and do everything they could to try to – just to help me adapt into a world that wasn’t necessarily fit for me to be able to adapt in as I’m sure many of your listeners can relate to whether they have a disability all throughout their life or something that they – you know, [0:01:46] [Indiscernible] injury or illness. I think that it has taught me that mentality though that every single person on the planet has a disability. It’s probably one of the one big things that unites us and just to not be limited by it.

[0:02:00] So what that looked like growing up, you know, it was just learning how to pick up a spoon and drop it a thousand times until I figured out how to go and feed myself. You know, now hold it just between the ends of my arms and swing it around to go and scoop up the food, to driving a fairly minimally-adapted vehicle, living on my own out in West Coast for five years. You know, 3000 miles away from home and you know, getting to wrestle, compete in jiu-jitsu, football and climb some of the highest mountains in the world.

[0:02:33] So frankly like none of those things I would have ever imagined would have been possible in the beginning and it’s amazing I think what can become possible once we stay focused on the possibilities.

[0:02:48] Jay Ruderman: And your sisters – I guess you have three sisters who seem to have been really just accepting you as their brother and being really supportive of you growing up. I’m sure that was also – you know, that household you grew up in was a very strong household to have your childhood.

[0:03:11] Kyle Maynard: Yeah. They – to kind of illustrate like a ridiculousness of the point of how – you know, they didn’t try to focus on the disability. Basically so there is a – at home, it just – it wasn’t really something that we put a lot of attention or focus on. We call that like the Jedi mind trick, right? They just try to focus the attention towards something else and it’s almost like perception becomes reality in a certain way.

[0:03:39] Like perception is perception and reality is reality. But like what we perceive is a great deal of like what – you know, what a reality becomes. So my sister, one day she was like at school and there’s a new kid that came to class that was an amputee and she was like, “Mom, mom, this kid came to school. He’s missing an arm. I wonder how he does this. I wonder how he does that,” and my mom told her. She’s like, “You do realize like your brother doesn’t have arms or legs.” She was like, “Whoa! I never even really thought about that.”

[0:04:11] You know, and so it’s kind of a – something that I learned that really changed my life when I learned it was the idea that the map is not the territory. What that means is like when we’re navigating through a specific territory, then our ability to be able to navigate through that territory is only going to be as useful as the map that we actually have and it’s – the map is never going to be the territory itself, right? The territory is infinitely complex. But yet the closer we can get the map to the territory itself, then the better we’re able to go and navigate.

[0:04:42] Jay Ruderman: So you are an athlete and in many ways an extreme athlete and growing up, you really focused on sports in high school and decided to wrestle. In fact you lost your first 36 matches in your senior year but end up becoming 12^th in the nation. Where did that drive come from? Was that because of bullying or is that just something inside saying, “I’m going to put my focus into being the best athlete I can”?

[0:05:16] Kyle Maynard: It was a lot of factors. I can’t think that it relates back to any one thing. But I think that – you know, bullying is an interesting thing too, right? Because I mean it’s something that – I can’t say that it didn’t play a factor or role, right? Like the idea – you know, the sports that I specifically got into were very like sort of masculine. You know, like the combat sports, right?

[0:05:45] Like – or like very challenging things, like climbing mountains, things of that nature. So I think that idea of like trying to express myself physically was for sure like a big factor and not wanting to be bullied, you know, and I think the wrestling gave me that ability. When I first got into it though, I hated the sport because in wrestling, like you’re out there all alone. It’s you and your opponent on the mat, right?

[0:06:14] So it’s very different than in football. In a football game, if your teammate drops the ball and you lose the winning touchdown but like you – you played a good game yourself, then like you can walk away and be like, “Oh, OK. You know, I did my best and that was out of my control.”

[0:06:32] Wrestling is very different in a sense that like it was just me and my opponent out there and I was all alone. So there is no ability to be able to go and blame it on anybody else other than myself as to whatever happened. Also it just – the losses like wore on me. Like I don’t want to give anybody the impression that like – you know, that that was an easier time. Like I was like begging my mom and dad to let me quit and hated the sport and I was not having a good time and people at the time were basically saying that it was borderline child abuse that my mom and dad were making me do it.

[0:07:08] So that’s the crazy part and then fast forward to my senior year of high school, there was a different discussion and it – they had a piece on this. It was on HBO Real Sports and part of the piece that’s centered on that was whether or not I had an unfair advantage over the athletes I was competing against. So it’s just quite a juxtaposition from where I started where it was 0 and 35 when I first started out and absolutely hating the sport. Then all of a sudden my senior year of high school, winning 36 varsity matches and getting to go and beat state champions and state placers and compete at a high level.

[0:07:49] Jay Ruderman: So let’s talk about that. First of all, tell me about your coaches because usually coaches play a pivotal role in either encouraging athletes to move forward or deterring them. So my guess is that you are blessed with some really special coaches.

[0:08:07] Kyle Maynard: For sure. I was very blessed with the coaches that I had in my life. My football coach because I started out – football was the first organized team sport that I played and there was even a bit more discussion as to whether or not I should be allowed to play in football. In fact there was a seven-member board that was deciding whether or not I was allowed to play. There were three votes for me, three votes against me and my football coach Tom Schie had to go and lobby and fight for the seventh vote for me to be able to play.

[0:08:39] Had he not done that, then we wouldn’t be having this conversation and the idea was that it was going to be too dangerous, that I would be hurt, liabilities, all of those things and I completely understand that. You know, literally like the way that I was – would tackle people was I would take my helmet and I would smash it into my opponent’s shins as hard as I could. So …

[0:09:03] Jay Ruderman: Sounds painful.

[0:09:05] Kyle Maynard: Yeah, and probably was more for them than for me. But you know, I think – you know, and then the world of like the head injury stuff that we have today in conversation. Like I don’t think that I would be allowed to play, which then begs the question of like is that the right thing for us, for the world, for society.

[0:09:23] Like, you know – because if I hadn’t been allowed to play and been allowed to do that, then it would have turned out as a very different path and my wrestling coach, he would get down with my dad in the first early go-ins. He would stay after practices and like he was the head high school varsity coach and would stay after in the youth program and spend a significant amount of time working with me where he would tuck his arms into his sleeves and try to roll – wrestle from my perspective to go and give me an idea of how to move and, you know, try to come up with moves from my perspective.

[0:10:01] Jay Ruderman: Well, I recently watched a talk by Arnold Schwarzenegger who said that those people who are successful in life have a goal and that goal drives them. So you obviously had a goal and that goal – you know, despite all the losses to start off with, that goal pushed you to stay with the sport and not to leave. But let’s talk about all – I mean did you have opponents who said listen, I’m not – I don’t want to fight him or did you have people in the crowds who were just heaping abuse on you and how do you deal with that?

[0:10:43] Kyle Maynard: Not so much in wrestling. In wrestling, it didn’t seem to be that much of an issue. There was debate. I think mostly among the parents, the kids that I beat, that they were trying to come up with things where they were like – absurd, ridiculous things where they’re like, “Kyle can’t put his hands above the starting line,” in like a very like legalistic interpretation of the rules to try to like deter me from actually doing it.

[0:11:13] So I think my coach went to a rules meeting, had conversations with the referees and they were able to move past that. In MMA, it’s a bit of a different scenario. I did have a number of opponents who backed out until I actually got my opponent that I fought, Brian Fry, in the fight and then I give him a tremendous amount of credit for taking that fight because it was just – I think at the time I had been on Oprah and Larry King and had received a lot of this bigger media attention. When we did that fight, I think like six times more people had Googled my name than even when I was on Oprah. So there was a lot of attention on it. We had camera crews and – from ESPN, all the major like MMA networks and all that stuff who were covering it.

[0:12:11] So it was just like a very big special and frankly he was an amateur fighter as well. I think he had had like four or five amateur fights at that point. So this all of a sudden turned into like a – you know, not quite the level of like a Conor McGregor title fight. But approaching that as far as the amateur skill goes and – but he did it anyway and stepped in and fought. You know, without him, I wouldn’t have had that chance to be able to do it.

[0:12:37] Jay Ruderman: So what – I mean it sounds a little crazy. Like what possessed you to want to do to enter an MMA match? MMA, I’m not an aficionado but I understand that it’s a caged match and there’s a lot more that goes into it than a regular wrestling match. So why does Kyle decide, you know, “I want to try to be an MMA fighter”?

[0:13:05] Kyle Maynard: Good question. I think I’ve always loved like the tests and the challenges for sure and there’s a purity inside of – especially in martial arts, right? That there’s an artistry that exists that is hard to experience outside of it.

[0:13:28] Andrew and I were talking about this yesterday. It’s when you hold someone down or someone is holding you down or it – like there’s a different level of fight that comes out of you that – like you can’t experience otherwise. You know, it’s like – I’ve pushed myself really, really hard in CrossFit workouts and mountain climbing and all that kind of stuff and it’s not the same thing as when you’re in there.

[0:13:53] So, you know, if you’re locked in the cage of somebody else, it does sound like a crazy thing and I think for 99.9 percent of people, that might be the case. But, you know, for me, it’s something I – I was a huge fan of the sport and getting to be in there and to experience it, it was absolutely wild. You know, I mean wrestling matches too are like really – you know, jiu-jitsu, they’re – like your adrenaline is going. You know, it’s a really heightened experience. But at the same time, it’s different.

[0:14:26] I remember when I was hit for the first time. I thought, whoa, I’m not in a wrestling match anymore. You know, I don’t know. It was just a different kind of feeling came out. I still was not able to execute my game plan. Mike Tyson says, he’s like, “Everybody has got a plan until you get punched in the face.”

[0:14:44] Jay Ruderman: Right.

[0:14:44] Kyle Maynard: That was the truth. I was like, “Wow, you know, I felt that.” Yeah, and then all of the fight too, to go and to get to that point as well. There was a tremendous fight with the Athletic Commission in Georgia and the head commissioner himself is in a wheelchair. He was an off-duty police officer that was shot in the spine. So he told me face to face. You know, looked me in the eye and said like, “I will be there cage side when you do this. I think it’s a really inspiring thing that you’re helping people with disabilities,” you know, and changing the perception.

[0:15:16] Then all of a sudden, like due to the public pressure and the sort of outcry that it was ridiculous that I was doing it, then his attitude changed completely. It was the unanimous decision to deny me. So that’s why we ended up going to Alabama to do the fight there because there’s significantly less government regulation and I’ve joked – you know, half-jokingly, half-serious that if I wanted to fight like a pack of hyenas in Alabama, they probably would let me. You know, but that in truth though, it like allowed me to have that opportunity to do it and again I don’t know if that’s something that would even be possible today.

[0:15:58] Jay Ruderman: So Kyle, you do a tremendous amount of public speaking and on the story on the ESPN, you said that you are happy for the 45 minutes while you were doing the public speaking. But then for the 23 hours and 15 minutes afterwards, you were depressed. Can you talk a little bit about mental health and how that has impacted you? I mean we’re going through a time now when there’s a tremendous amount of people dealing with mental health on all different levels. That maybe you can – if you share about your own mental health and how you’ve dealt with it.

[0:16:33] Kyle Maynard: Yeah. I’ve always said some of the most challenging disabilities are ones that you can’t necessarily see on the outside. We think we can be close to people that we’re around but we can never really truly know what somebody else is enduring and going through. For me, especially in that period, was – you know, I went from being a fulltime high school student, freshman in college at UGA where I got to go and released my book.

[0:17:00] So I went from literally just high school wrestler, early college wrestler, athlete, hanging out with friends. You know, to now all of a sudden like New York Times bestselling book, traveling the world, all of this crazy stuff. This is a whirlwind transition and that was really challenging. I was alone for a significant amount of it and my friends were back at home having fun, continuing to go to school and I was off traveling. I was speaking for different groups and I wasn’t eating my own dog food. I was not practicing the message that I was talking to other people about of the like no-excuses message, right?

[0:17:47] And I got very discouraged and was ready to quit and had a chance meeting with a couple of service members, army service members who had been through some really, really hard times and injuries themselves who told me that my story had helped them like get back on their feet and that made an interesting and enormous difference to me and made me realize that like the – you know, the work that I was doing was important and I remember after that happened, I came home and I went to my hotel room and I just cried.

[0:18:24] I had a dream to want to be in the military growing up and my dad was in the army and I – the drive would have done anything. They told me I could be a chaplain. I was like, “Oh, that’s cool. Does he get a gun?” Oh, and wanted to be out there in the frontlines and you know, there is a different plan in place. But at the same time, I don’t know, I – it just woke me up to realize that like OK, this – you know, this is what matters and you know, like – you know, I want to like make a difference in the lives of other people instead of just going out there and like collecting a check from the speaking engagements that I was doing.

[0:19:03] That was a tough period and not just that. You know, I mean that’s one point in time at a younger age. I was at a point in time with my life and disability where I was ready to give up in my life. Like it was just like too much. At 10 years old, I tried to end my life. There was a lot of pain in different points in time throughout and even more recently, in the past like six to eight months, it has been a time to kind of like really like stop and reflect and to stop and to slow down and just be grateful for the little things and for family, for just waking up another day.

[0:19:51] Jay Ruderman: Well, I think that none of us know who we’re touching and sometimes it can be a small act or a small interaction and you can have a huge impact on someone’s life. But I think also – I mean talking about like the small steps and, you know, now having an appreciation for taking the time and looking at the small steps. I mean you’ve done some really challenging things. I mean you climbed Mount Kilimanjaro in Africa and Aconcagua in Argentina and I mean I remember watching the video of you saying, “Listen. At some point, I’m just looking three feet ahead and that’s my goal. I just want to get three feet ahead and that’s what’s motivating me.”

[0:20:44] First of all, what led you – and I saw in the videos, I mean you had to have special fittings on your limbs in order to walk over rocks and dirt and snow and ice and you’re doing a bear crawl which for those of us that work out, a bear crawl across a room is excruciating. But to do it for miles up a mountain, why did you do it? What possessed you to do those climbs?

[0:21:20] Kyle Maynard: I would say the initial position occurred because I wanted to go places that my wheelchair couldn’t take me. There are no handicap ramps in Kilimanjaro. You know, there’s not going to be a tram line that gets you to the top and frankly even if there was, it’s a very different experience. Like there’s a mountain Atlanta called Stone Mountain that – you know, it’s – I think it’s technically the largest continuous hunk of granite in the world.

[0:21:50] Jay Ruderman: Right. I know it well. It’s very controversial in today’s day.

[0:21:55] Kyle Maynard: Yeah, it is and it has also been a really special place for me to – where I started my climbing. I literally – when I started climbing, I had bath towels wrapped around my arms and my feet that my friends had helped duct tape on to hike it. So it’s about 900 feet above ground and I had been to Stone Mountain with my family a bunch of times growing up whenever somebody would come into town and we would go and we would take pictures and it’s a cool experience when I hiked it for the first time.

[0:22:32] I literally like tore all the skin off my arms. I was brutalized from the experience. It was a CrossFit competition. The first workout was a 1000-meter run and a sprint up Stone Mountain. I did it in leather welding sleeves and it was just a really painful thing. Literally it took an hour and 40 something minutes. I think an hour and 46 minutes maybe. Most people finish that workout in 25 minutes and I got to the top and it was like wow, this is like totally different. Like it’s actually like really beautiful.

[0:23:09] So I’ve been to the top before and then all of a sudden when I got to the top after climbing it on my own steam, then it was just a totally different experience.

[0:23:20]Jay Ruderman: So you’re climbing Kilimanjaro and you reached a point – I don’t know how far up but miles up and it’s just excruciating and you’re telling yourself and your fellow climbers, “I just don’t know if I can do this,” and a decision is made to climb a much more difficult route called the “Western Breach,” which is very rocky and you know, in the video, you’re like let’s do it. I’m going to do it. Can you talk about that decision? Like what – you know, put your – you’re all the way up there and you put yourself in an even more dangerous situation.

[0:24:06] Kyle Maynard: Yeah. I knew that going the Western Breach route would shave off five days of the total trip time. So I was looking at like a longer slow death. Basically like I had like a pebble inside of – it wasn’t like a pebble. It was sort of like a – there’s a part of my right arm socket that was like a princess and a pea kind of like thing that was just grinding into my arm. It was creating some of the most intense pain I’ve ever felt.

[0:24:37] I was at like a breaking point and knew that like five more days of that was just not going to work. But I knew that I could get through one day of anything. I mean like, you know, one day, I can get through anything. I knew as long as my guide determined that it was safe in that we could go – we ultimately had a team meeting and presented the option to everybody and said that we can split into two groups. One group can continue to go on the original path if people choose to do that and the other group can go up and everybody decided to just stay, which I’m almost going to get like emotional thinking about it because we ended up relying on each other a lot there to do it and really that one day was a brutal day.

[0:25:39] There was – you know, it was a steeper path, rock fall, and it was – you know, that was – it was a really just special day because that was the first day that I recall touching ice and once we were in – like hit the ice and were sitting in the tundra and I could look back and I could see the rainforest that we had started out in. It was just one of the – that night was probably – we slept inside of the crater rim in the tundra and it was one of the coldest nights of my life.

[0:26:14] My guide who has been on the top of most major mountains around the world, he had the same thing too and it was one of the coldest nights in his life and it was just another – with that next morning, we got up and had another 900 feet to go to hit the summit and after the Western Breach and I thought it was kind of symbolic because I mean it’s almost the exact distance of a single stone mountain.

[0:26:40] [You’re listening to All Inclusive with Jay Ruderman. You can learn more. View the show notes and transcripts at www.RudermanFoundation.org/allinclusive.]

[0:26:52] [Please remember to subscribe, rate and review us wherever you are listening.]

[0:26:58] Jay Ruderman: And you were carrying the remains of a fallen service member. Is it someone that you knew or – you know, because it seemed to be a very symbolic – you know, to get to the top, to be able to disperse the ashes on the top was something very important to you. Can you talk a little bit about that?

[0:27:22] Kyle Maynard: Yeah. I met Corey’s mom. Corey Johnson was the name of the soldier. I met his mom in a jam in Arizona before we left and she had lost him I think five months prior and he had a wife. He had two little girls. I believe his wife was pregnant with their third daughter when he left on his final appointment and on the fortnight of the climb, when I was read to quit, a thought ran through my head that it was almost like a – I don’t even know how to describe it. Like the word is almost like indignation.

[0:28:06] It’s like the fact that like I knew that he wouldn’t have the opportunity to go in and be on that climb with his girls and that I was there and that I was choosing to be there and to – like I still had like choice to be alive and continue to push to the top and I felt like a presence there with me. I felt like I had him. He’s like our 10^th teammate in addition to all of the – we had nine Americans on the team.

[0:28:38] You know, Corey is sort of our honorary tenth teammate and that moment of getting to leave Corey’s ashes there on the summit on Kilimanjaro was absolutely – I’ve described it as the biggest honor of my life and I believe that to be the case.

[0:28:56] Jay Ruderman: It’s extremely emotional and I would urge anyone to watch a clip of your final ascent to the summit. When you summited Mount Aconcagua in Argentina, in some ways I think you said that was even more difficult because of the conditions.

[0:29:19] Kyle Maynard: The conditions, the altitude. So the difference between Kilimanjaro is 19,341 feet, Aconcagua is 22,800 and I think 809, something like that. So the difference between 19,000 feet and almost 23,000 feet, that doesn’t seem like a ton. But it’s not a linear increase. It becomes like a – almost not quite exponential difference. But it becomes like a significant, like a geometric kind of curve, parabolic.

[0:29:52] Like once you’re going up that high, like we spent maybe four, five nights above the altitude in the summit on Kilimanjaro. So your body is just in a state of decay and really like pushed to the limit there and it I think was just – there was also too a bit of like what I believe to be like divine intervention and like celestial alignment. Like literally like the heavens opened. It was the most perfect summit day. Everything – and we were still – like I hit the summit at 4:15 PM, which was 15 minutes past our turnaround time which our – my guide gave me as a grace period and thankfully we had some issues. But it was just – it was a really, really intense day.

[0:30:47] There is a – you know, and psychologically too. So it was really – it was difficult as well. There is an American climber that we knew that was 24 hours ahead of us that had fallen down from a stroke and hit his head and had died and they had just brought his body down like right as we had gotten there. I was thinking to myself like the same thing. Like my body was in a full shutdown mode. Like do I continue to go and push forward for the summit or like is that going to go and cost me my life? Yeah, that was …

[0:31:23] Jay Ruderman: Certainly not for everyone and, you know, I got to give you a lot of credit that you pushed yourself to your limits. Why don’t we talk a little bit about hidden disabilities? You mentioned to me in the past that you have ADHD and maybe you can talk about that and what impact it has had on your life and how it shaped your life.

[0:31:48] Kyle Maynard: Yeah. I mean so for starters, it’s not really something that I have talked about a ton. So it was kind of new to me. But I know it’s something that like would probably have been more beneficial to like to bring up earlier. I know a ton of people battle the same or similar challenges.

[0:32:08] I think that like – you know, for starters, one of the things that comes to mind was signing books for kids where the – you know, I would be writing an inscription and that the parent would go and tell me like oh, my child has ADD or ADHD. Then I would have like a big conversation and dialogue with them and go and tell them like basically like hey, I got the same thing too. You know, it’s like maybe I didn’t say that in the speech. But like it has definitely been a challenge in my life. But I’ve always called it like my secret super power too because I think that like – you know, like we’ve talked about before with disabilities, it’s kind of like both sides of the coin, right?

[0:32:44] There’s the adversity that we would face from it but it also shapes us and molds us and helps build us to who we are and also just statistically and empirically I know we know tons of people with ADHD do pretty incredible things with their life, whether it’s like becoming first responders or special operations in the military. You know, entrepreneurs. I think that people are like 300 percent more likely to be an entrepreneur with ADD or ADHD than without.

[0:33:14] So sometimes like we get caught in like I think that – like diagnosing something as – you know, like kind of like put in that box and that characteristic around it and create the limitations around what something could be as opposed to like seeing it for the beauty that it’s going to be. But it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t have enormous challenges and consequences too, right? Like I think the internal aspect of the disability that I face, the one that you can’t see on the outside is probably as hard or harder than the physical nature of the disability too, right?

[0:33:50] So like people can go and see – you know, if your listeners are called from like – you know, I was talking before. Like basically I was born a congenital amputee. So my arms end at the elbows and legs end at the knees and that has obviously presented other challenges, other opportunities too.

[0:34:08] But the hidden things, the unseen disabilities like – you know, like that I face there, like it’s a totally different world, totally different set of challenges and I went and resorted to try to like medicate for a long time. You know, especially like with caffeine and to like prescription medication and Ritalin and Adderall and other types of stimulants and sought kind of anything that I could to try to like help make it better. You know, even recreational drug use at points for escapism.

[0:34:53] I never would have – like wouldn’t have considered it like full blown addiction to things other than like stimulants and caffeine in particular but like I know it could become a big issue, right? Like we rely upon on something that – you know, I don’t know where to go and compensate and overcome and then every single person on the planet has like those hidden disabilities too, right? Like I can’t necessarily look at you and know what yours are. That’s the crazy part about it too. So it’s like what do you do with that? Like I figured, you know, that would just – it would be interesting to have this conversation with you and open up and like – and share about something I never really shared about before.

[0:35:30] Jay Ruderman: Right. Yeah, I have a son with ADHD who – you know, I can just tell he’s going to be a great entrepreneur and is part of who he is and I think with – especially with mental health issues, a lot of us don’t want to talk about it and there’s a tremendous amount of stigma around it. But you’re a very visible person and you’ve been very outspoken about what you can do and what you’ve accomplished as a person with a disability. There are so many different people who are great athletes who are speaking out. I think it’s going to do wonders for our kids.

[0:36:10] Kyle Maynard: Yeah, I’m hopeful for that too. I mean I think that like if I put myself in like in your son’s shoes, for instance, right? Like if I got diagnosed with something that most people would go and look at and think of it as this like really negative thing, but then I go and see other people that have done successful – like lived a great life and achieved great things and had the same thing.

[0:36:34] It completely kind of like reframes and shifts the disability. It would make me more proud of it in that way, right? Like I would want to embrace it and I don’t want to downplay or diminish like the difficulty that something is, especially with ADD, right? Like it’s, you know – but then at the same time, it’s like the positive side of that too though. Like I realize that like wow, like that’s actually like a huge gift and a super power to be able to go and see different threats or things like that or other things that other people wouldn’t necessarily realize or respond to.

[0:37:06] ADD people too respond to fear in a different way. That’s why like most people – so like, you know, it’s like first responders and oftentimes you have military and like I’m sure – maybe frontline workers [0:37:20] [Indiscernible] right now that like have to deal with like that response to fear, you know, and going in to scary situations. You know, entrepreneurship in and of itself is like a scary thing, right? You’re taking like an unproven concept and you’re trying to go and make something work with it and trying to like adapt it and you don’t necessarily know if it’s going to work, right?

[0:37:44] But then at the same time, like if you never know, you know, if you don’t try, you never know. You don’t get to have like a company, like an Uber appear overnight and completely like change the entire like world, right? Like without somebody that has like that kind of thinking of like – just, you know, thinking it in a totally different way. So I think that that’s a –

[0:38:05] Jay Ruderman: I mean I think there are so many people in history that have probably had mental health issues that we just don’t know about. But it was part of who they were and – or who they are and it made them great entrepreneurs, great artists, great athletes and it’s something that – I totally get you. I mean the traditional classroom for someone who has ADHD or ADD is not the best environment. But it doesn’t have anything to do with intelligence. It doesn’t have anything to do with your abilities to succeed and I think we have to blow those stigmas away in order to allow people to feel good about who they are and what they can do in our world.

[0:38:55] Kyle Maynard: Yeah. You know, not only is it like – is the traditional classroom not set up for people in that. It’s almost like the exact opposite, right? Like it’s – there’s that latent aspect of our DNA and our like biology that we’re suppressing, especially among like this specific group of people who are potentially some of the most important people in our society, in our culture that are effectively at times just being punished because, you know, you can’t sit still and listen to a lecture or whatever. You know, but at the same time, they could go out and solve enormous problems and be great leaders in so many other ways, in so many other industries.

[0:39:38] Jay Ruderman: Right. So I will tell you something about my son. He has been diagnosed and doctors have said listen, if you are going to succeed in a classroom environment, you have to take some medication to handle your executive functioning and be able to sit in a classroom and keep up the work and he’s like, “I’m not doing it. I’m not taking medication. I will not do that.”

[0:40:02] We’re like, “All right. That’s your choice. But this may be difficult.” He’s like, “No. I don’t feel myself,” and he’s like, “I have friends who do take it. I have friends that don’t take it and I don’t want to take it. I want to feel myself and I’m going to do fine in school.”

[0:40:19] So there’s no one formula. I know people feel strongly on different ends of the spectrum about medication or no medication. But I don’t think that – you know, whether he is successful in a traditional environment or whether he’s not successful, he’s going to reflect on his ultimate success in life.

[0:40:42] I mean I can just tell from his personality that he will be a successful person. So I totally get it. I really appreciate you speaking out and you talking about this aspect of yourself because it’s in us all. There’s no one who is completely perfect. I don’t think perfect is meant to exist or what perfect actually is. But we’re all – we all have a role and I think that we should be proud of ourselves and love ourselves.

[0:41:17] Let me just ask you, what does the future hold for you? I mean you’re an athlete. Where does your athletics take you? What’s the next challenge for you? And I would also ask you to give – you know, for all of those listeners, especially younger listeners, what piece of advice would you like to depart to them?

[0:41:39] Kyle Maynard: I think right now, I’m kind of in that process of recreating and re-dreaming like who I am and what I want to go and take on and do next and there’s a million different things and directions. It’s almost narrated down as the difficulty because all of us have 24 hours in a day and there’s only so many different things that we can go and do and take on.

[0:42:10] You know, at the same time, like I said, really like the – and I don’t say this to be completely absurd – cliché. But like the biggest lesson that I’m learning right now and I think the lesson that I will impart to others is like really to stop and smell the roses and in the world right now, like it’s just – it’s crazy, what’s – you know, the – I think a lot of it is the – you know, the 24-hour news cycle focuses so much on the negative side of things, right?

[0:42:45] And then especially we’re inside and connected to our devices and that we’re having more of like digital communication interactions with each other. Then it’s easy to lose sight of the fact that there’s still so much good in the world and that like as a species, as a – you know, just global community, we’ve come a long way and there’s still a long way to go.

[0:43:13] But at the same time, I think if there’s one unifying thing that would matter to me in terms of leadership and my contribution – and I think that you’re right. I think you made an interesting point there. I will retract what I said of like not seeing myself as a leader inside of the community because what I do in terms of my own path and leadership is my own path and leadership.

[0:43:36] But what you do inside of yours is yours and that they’re both critical, that they’re both important. But I think in terms of going forward, I learned recently that the word “prosperity” actually means towards hope and I think that that’s the direction that I feel aligned with most is continue to go and help drive myself and hopefully those around me and that those I interact with, you know, towards hope that the future can be better than it is today.

[0:44:08] Jay Ruderman: Well, Kyle, I really want to thank you. This has been an interesting conversation. I’ve learned so much from you not only from our discussion but from seeing you in action on film, which I would urge people to Google you and to – and to see what you’ve done and also to read your book No Excuses. You know, I want to wish you the best of luck. I know these are trying times. But things are going to get better and you have so much energy to depart to this world. So thank you so much for being my guest today.

[0:44:45] Kyle Maynard: Thank you, Jay. I appreciate you.

[0:44:48] Jay Ruderman: Great, and I hope we get to see each other in person one day.

[0:44:51] Kyle Maynard: Absolutely. Let’s do it.

[0:44:53] Jay Ruderman: All right. Take care. Thank you.

[0:44:55] Kyle Maynard: Thank you.

[0:45:00] [All Inclusive is a production of the Ruderman Family Foundation. Our key mission is the full inclusion of people with disabilities in all aspects of society. You can find All Inclusive on Apple Podcast, Google Play, Spotify and Stitcher. To view the show notes, transcripts or to learn more, go to http://www.RudermanFoundation.org/allinclusive. Have an idea for a podcast? Be sure to tweet @jayruderman.

Tiffany Smith-Anoa’i: I was not going to be window dressing. There was no way that I was not going to let this happen. As I said, when I created the role, performers with disabilities were always in that palette.[All Inclusive, a podcast on inclusion, innovation and social justice with Jay Ruderman.]Jay Ruderman: Hello and welcome to All Inclusive. I’m Jay Ruderman. Today we’re speaking with a unique trailblazer in the world of entertainment at the intersection of inclusion and diversity in major television programing.Tiffany Smith-Anoa'i rose from within the publicity department at CBS to create the role of Executive Vice President, Entertainment Diversity, Inclusion and Communications at CBS Entertainment.The story of her ascent from a college student hailing from LA with full scholarship to Howard University to a current position is a fascinating one, complete with a bump or two and people with interesting characters and decisive, principled actions.So welcome Tiffany and thank you for joining me on All Inclusive.Tiffany Smith-Anoa’i: It is my pleasure. It’s always good to see you and I am so happy to be joining your podcast today.Jay Ruderman: Thank you. Tiffany, you are truly one of the leading pioneers in advocating for inclusion and diversity and entertainment. I want to talk a little bit about your background, which I found fascinating. You grew up in Los Angeles and received a full scholarship to Howard University and yet you lost the scholarship. Can you tell us your story about what happened there and the lesson that stuck with you throughout your life?Tiffany Smith-Anoa’i: Absolutely. I did. I got a full four-year academic scholarship to Howard University and I got to campus and got to Washington DC and the first winter came and as you note, I’m a native Angelino. I was not ready for the weather. I was not ready. I don’t even think that I was really ready for college let’s say in the sense of being immature and not taking my studies as serious as I should be.I would like to note that in order to maintain that academic scholarship, all I had to maintain was a 3.0 and that’s B. Someone should be able to do that and this is when I say that 17-year-old me lost my mind and I made poor decisions in the sense of that, oh, it’s too cold outside. I’m not going to go to class.I got an A on that test last week. It’s not necessary to go again. So I did not put my studies as a priority. But also at the same time, I was telling my parents how great I was doing. I think that I – like when I say that I truly really lost my mind, I really did in the sense of that I was, “Oh, you know what? I need a car,” because I’m working. So if we could ship me a car and I don’t want to live in the dorms anymore. I think I would like to live off-campus and mind you, so I come home for break and my parents picked me up in a brand new jeep, brand new car because I’ve been doing so great.Then they say, “You know what? It would probably be safer for you to be in an apartment. Let’s pay six months in advance.” They do this in advance and then the grades come. I get a 2.9. I miss it by one percentage and I lose my academic scholarship. Therefore my mother who sat me down at the kitchen table and I can feel and smell and taste everything that was happening at that moment and she said these words to me.She said, “You took someone’s spot,” and when I looked, it just broke my heart that I did take someone’s spot that deserved to be at an institute for higher education and I took someone’s spot and I did not take it serious.So she said that if you want to return to Howard, you figure out how to get back there. You pay for the next semester and see what it’s like. So I was home for 10 months. I enrolled in community college to transfer credits. I had to give back the brand new car. My parents would now drive my car and they gave me a Nova. This Nova, I don’t know if anyone remembers Novas but it was a Nova that was like barely running and the heater never turned off.So I was hot throughout the summers and I would have to drive with the windows down and I got a job. I wasn’t able to go anywhere. I was able to save over $30,000 and I was able to reenroll in Howard and I graduated with honors and still in only four years.So there was definitely a silver lining to it. But if I hadn’t failed my freshman year and failed so spectacularly, if you will, I think that was such a life lesson that it makes me appreciate and never take anyone’s spot. That’s what I have learned through that. So it is something that is ingrained in my brain, that I always remember what I did that freshman year.Jay Ruderman: Well, it’s such a powerful lesson and as a father of a 17-year-old, I can identify with your mindset. But again, your persistence, your ability to focus and to get back to where you want it to be I think is the key to success.Now you start your career as a publicist working for Niketown and Sinbad. How did you land at CBS and did you always feel you were going to end up in entertainment?Tiffany Smith-Anoa’i: I didn’t feel that I was always going to be in entertainment per se. I really had a desire for sports and so that’s why I stayed at Nike for so long. So it gave me that adjacent to – I was sports adjacent and I was doing PR for Niketowns. Those are retail stores that were open across the country and being the liaison between the store and our athletes. I have a friend and she told me, “Hey, CBS is hiring for a publicist and I interviewed for it. But they said that I was overqualified and they asked if I knew anyone that didn’t have as much experience as I did, but was like me. So I thought of you. You can get an interview. So send in your resume.”So I sent in the resume, went in and I nailed the interview and the asterisk to the story is my friend Ava DuVernay who everyone knows is a director now. But she started as a publicist. She is the reason why I am at CBS and she was the reason, she was the overqualified friend that gave me an opportunity. So that’s how I landed at CBS in publicity.Jay Ruderman: You also say that when you entered into CBS, there was no one like you there.Tiffany Smith-Anoa’i: Yes.Jay Ruderman: When you looked around the room, what did that feel like and what impact did that have on you?Tiffany Smith-Anoa’i: It was a little shocking to tell you the truth. When I first showed up to work or even for the interview, it wasn’t even the first day of work. It was the interview that I noticed it most. Number one, it’s a communications department. But when I came in, it was really quiet and it wasn’t what I expected. I thought that it would be bustling and almost like a newsroom. I was used to that environment.So that was number one. It kind of got my spidey senses up if you will and then when I came for the first day at work, I realized, I was like wow, when we had a meeting, I’m the only person of color, any color in the entire department. That was both west and east coast. I always usually say that with an asterisk because a lot of people stay at CBS for a long time. It’s a good – obviously a good testament to the company.I myself just celebrated 20 years in this past February. But I’m kind of a – thank you. I’m kind of a spring chicken in that sense because there’s more people that have been there 25, 30, 35, 40 years and so I think that that was another reason why it looked the way it did is that no one left. So it didn’t give an opportunity for others to come in.Jay Ruderman: Tell us why you feel diversity is important in your industry and the story of how you created your position at CBS.Tiffany Smith-Anoa’i: Sure. I started as a publicist at Legacy CBS and I really noticed that television was going in the direction of more inclusivity as well as needing more diversity, both in front of and behind the camera. One of the ways that was a real through line was actually the 1999-2000 season.That particular season is when diversity talks sprouted up for all of the major networks and four major coalitions got together that particular year, the NAACP, the National Hispanic Media Coalition, the Asian Pacific American Media Coalition and the Native American Coalition. Those four coalitions banded together and demanded that the major networks really put more diversity both in front of and behind the camera. But the catalyst for that was that during – right around this time, that fall shows were being launched and there was not one person of color in any series regular role across all three networks.That was the spark of it and with me being in publicity, we were on the receiving end of a lot of those calls. So they would be, “Oh, the NAACP is on the phone. What do we say?” and my reaction being the only person of color in the entire department is, “They speak English. Let’s talk to them. Let’s have a conversation.”That’s how ultimate change happens and before I ever knew that this could be a real job, it was the research that I continued to do and looking at the numbers and the business case for diversity.The business case for diversity has been proven over and over and over again. However, I feel that at that time, it was one of the things that I needed to create for a major network.So I had a little PowerPoint that I put together and went into my boss’s office and I said, “I don’t think that you are managing me in the most effective way. This is where television is going,” and I said, “At this point, we are not even playing in the game. We are at home. The television is off and we’re asleep on the couch.”It was two year in the making of this being a real department. But I kept my head steadfast in knowing that I wanted there to be much more diversity in front of and behind the camera and being diverse in all of its diverseness, if you will. And let me say that again.Diversity does not solely mean race and ethnicity and/or sexual orientation. It does not mean it also includes performers and people with disabilities and that was always a priority for me as I created this position.Jay Ruderman: Octavia Spencer recently did a public service announcement for our foundation, calling for authentic representation of disability in film and television. One of the lines in the PSA that she said stuck with me. She said that the first time she saw someone like herself on TV was on the show The Jeffersons, which was a great show for those of us who are old enough to remember the show.Tiffany Smith-Anoa’i: I remember The Jeffersons.Jay Ruderman: But you’ve spoken about this. Why do you feel it’s important for people to see themselves portrayed authentically on TV and in film?Tiffany Smith-Anoa’i: I think that it is important for people to see themselves represented in media across the board because it lets others know how to treat us. People look to television, films, media, social media as well on what that represents and these images travel the globe. This is something where it’s not just a cute hashtag to say, “Oh, representation matters.” It really is – people look to television also that, “Oh, I saw it on TV. So it must be true.”That is where you are. Sometimes that is someone’s education. Sometimes that’s their only window into the world and if you are only seeing it through homogenous ways and a lens that is so narrow, you are not seeing the richness of cultures. Then therefore you don’t respect them. What is unknown to a lot of people becomes fearful of it also and/or it slips into a stereotype that is perpetuated.So it’s one of those that representation allows for creativity. It allows for people to actually be their full selves and not having to adhere to the limited view of what people have seen for centuries in their business.Jay Ruderman: Right. And addressing the issue of stigma, I’m not paraphrasing. Michelle Obama said that most of us get to know people who are not like us by seeing people on TV. It is such an impactful medium that it seems as America changes and America becomes more diverse, that we would like to see more people from different backgrounds authentically portrayed on television and in film and especially when it comes to disability.We know there has always been this concept that great acting means playing a disability. Yet for the disability community, this inauthentic portrayal of disability is deeply offensive. That’s beginning to change.I see changes all the time in new TV shows. But we have a long way to go in that area.Tiffany Smith-Anoa’i: Absolutely. I couldn’t agree with you more. I think that I don’t want it to only be that we’ve done this once and done. Oh, we did it. It was great. We put some – yeah, a performer with a disability in and then we’re done with this.I think that the way that this entire industry is based on relationships, it truly is and that’s why I want more people meeting each other. I always talk about the Ruderman Family Foundation. Oh, do you know them? Have you heard of them? You should do a general with them.This industry is based on relationships. So the more that people actually speak and listen to one another, that creates opportunity. But if you were speaking to the same people, hiring the same people, looking at the same stories all of the time, you get into a rut.Jay Ruderman: Well, thank you and you know, we’re proud of whatever part we’ve been able to play. But without partners such as yourself and other people I’ve met over the years, we’re not of the industry. So we really need to connect our advocacy with people who are on the inside. Really doing the day to day work.I will never forget our meeting at CBS when I came to you and asked you to sign the Ruderman Family Foundation pledge to audition actors with disabilities and you said to me something to the effect of, “That sounds right. We will sign.”How were you able to so quickly commit to the pledge and can you talk about how CBS has empowered you to make such impactful decisions?Tiffany Smith-Anoa’i: Absolutely. I mean I think that when you are someone that creates a division or a department and has that headstrong attitude, I was not going to be window dressing. I am not State Farm Insurance in the sense of that you just wheel me out when you need me to get you out of trouble.It is much more being proactive. So this was something that – again as I’ve said, when I created the role, performers with disabilities were always in that palette. So when you came in and said this, it was a no-brainer. I didn’t have to go ask anyone else. I knew that this was something that if I went back and said to our president, to our chairman, to whomever, our head of casting, this is what we were doing.That was the other thing. It wasn’t an ask and I think that when we can shift our mentality a little bit in that sense where we don’t always have to ask for something, that when I had to show you that there was no way that I was not going to let this happen and I didn’t also receive any resistance on it. There were definitely questions such as, “OK. Well, we’re already doing this, aren’t we?”Sure, we’re already doing it. But we could always do it better. We could always do it more. We could always have and we should also be very deliberate about it. So that was the other thing Jay that this was public-facing and I wanted our other industry partners to see. Hey, this is serious. We want you all to join us and that’s why it was much more of a call to action.Jay Ruderman: So first of all, thank you and I want to tell you at a conversation not so long ago with Nina Tassler, who is the past chairwoman of CBS Entertainment, and she could not stop singing your praises about your impact on the company. Do you feel that over the past year, that you’ve noticed a trend in the increase of authentic representation of diversity in television without getting into any specific shows? Do you think that there’s something happening out there?Tiffany Smith-Anoa’i: Absolutely. I think that we are no longer just working with the same three creators and I think that new ideas and most people that are coming up with new ideas, new shows, new stories, they have inclusive rooms. They want authentic representation and again, I want to be clear.Most media isn’t obviously the history channel. These are not historic documents that have to be factually and actually correct. There’s still entertainment there. However, it has been one way for so long where it has only been – where this is the only way that we can do it because that has been the only way that it has been done and that’s what has been accepted for so long.But yes, in the past year, I truly feel that the creators that we are witnessing, they want to tell more inclusive stories. It makes for richer stories. It really does. So it’s no longer just, oh, let’s see what we can remake. I don’t also want there to be diversity just for diversity’s sake. I don’t want to always feel as though it is something that is tokenized and/or trying to put a circle into a square.It needs to fit naturally. It needs to be done authentically and that’s why more people need to talk to others who aren’t like them.Jay Ruderman: Right, right. Based on your experience, what needs to happen for there to be true diversity in Hollywood? What are the steps that need to be taken?Tiffany Smith-Anoa’i: I think that there are several steps and I think that – I mean believe me. In my department has become the most important department in the history of departments ever since May 25^th. I will tell you that. That George Floyd happened and I think that all of a sudden, it was one of those that had been clamoring. Oh my gosh. What do I do? Can you look at my memo? Blah, blah, blah.But this has been going on for hundreds of centuries. We need to be very clear about that. I think that in order to have true diversity moving forward, you need to have diverse teams. That’s number one. The end people that are making decisions, they have to have inclusive teams that they actually include people. That’s the root of the word.So I think that Hollywood has been very linear as it pertains to diversity. They’ve been linear in a lot of other ways. But as it pertains to diversity, they’ve been very linear in their thinking and it is because it has been a certain way.The stats and the facts and the numbers that I like to deal with, first and foremost, they don’t lie. They’re not making up a story. We know that in directors, they are heavily white males. OK. Well, let’s try to have a more balanced list with that. Let’s make sure that we are providing access, exposure and opportunity for those in this business.So I feel that those are a few of the steps in making sure because it’s also very factual. When you have more of a diverse team, you have diverse outcomes. So if you don’t, then you normally don’t. So I think that that’s the other thing. More people in decision-making positions that like – when you came in and said, “Hey, we want to do this,” and I didn’t have to wait. I didn’t have to get back to you.I was able to be in power to say, “Yes, this is what we’re doing. Can I sign on the dotted line and what else do you want to talk about?” because we finished that business.It didn’t take two months to figure out. So I think that again, if you have more inclusivity in your ranks and you empower them and allow them to – allow them that space, then that’s when you have better outcomes. Otherwise, you just have people and companies that just say that they want to do better over and over and over again. I am so exhausted with the aspirational do-better and I’m doing air quotes right now, but you can’t see that. But that’s what I’m doing, the do-better.Like to me, just do it. That’s the thing. What – these systems that have been in place Jay, they have to be dismantled and reconfigured. I think that that’s what we are seeing right now.Jay Ruderman: So I think that you and your network are unique in jumping on things, in recognizing trends quickly and responding to the public, which you’re serving. You know, we also work with many, many universities and universities also have diversity officers.Unfortunately, a lot of them will come to us after a meeting and pull us aside to listen. We don’t have the authority to make a decision. There are things that need to be done at universities. But we’re not moving the ball forward. So I think that any institution, whether it’s a university or a studio or a major corporation, they’re going to come to this realization that they will probably benefit from it in terms not only of their public reputation but also to being able to see it reflect in the bottom line. But some work slower than others.I wanted to pick up on a point that you made, which is extremely important because we’re living in such very turbulent times right now. Let’s talk a little bit about racial injustice. I just looked at a piece this week in the Washington Post about police shows and how the police are being portrayed in a certain way and there may be a lack of nuance in that and that it’s something that you’re addressing.So how is your company addressing issues of racial injustice and adapting to what’s happening in real time on the streets in the United States?Tiffany Smith-Anoa’i: I think that we have a new President and CEO George Cheeks and he just started in March and this has made a lot of changes for not only CBS. But that I think that will help the industry, that we – specifically for our writer’s room. Who’s writing the stories that we have right now, that for the 2021 season, that we are going to have 40 percent of our writers that are people of color and hopefully for 2022, that’s going to be 50 percent.We are also in development to have 25 percent of a development fund going for people of color creatives. You have to be deliberate about it. We also have the partnership with the NAACP that we are going to be having. There will be a whole department at the studio that is going to have an opportunity to hear more stories, more voices and we have a lot of police procedurals on our network.We gave an opportunity and joined partnership with 21CP Solutions and have experts and not only just police officers or former police officers but those that study criminal justice and injustice. Civil rights attorneys also as consultants. So we have what we like to call a brain trust of about six consultants from 21CP that are going to be working directly with our police procedurals on more authentic storytelling. Just something different.Again, not trying to change and squelch creativity, not trying to put any sort of agenda one way or the other. But again, like I said earlier, when I said we’ve seen things based one way for a long time, if someone came to me and had a whole bag of resources, I would want to utilize those and that’s what this is.We’re looking at it to really make sure that we are opening up our resource bag to our shows, to make them as authentic and as representative as possible.Jay Ruderman: Is there anything that you’re working on now that you can talk about that’s particularly exciting for you?Tiffany Smith-Anoa’i: Yes. Well, we just finished inclusion week at Legacy Viacom. They have done Inclusion Week. It started in the UK and then it came over to the States. This was the third year that they did. We had to reimagine everything because – due to COVID obviously and everything was online.But we had over 90 sessions with amazing speakers that the entire company could be really part of and I think that that has been something that is continuing to have ripple effects into what we are doing and how we’re doing the work.So that is the one that stands out to me right now of what we are doing and we are also upcoming – and I don’t think that you’ve ever attended but our Sketch Comedy Showcase. I’ve always told you about it but you haven’t – yes. And that is actually – we – again, we will be doing it all digitally and I’m excited about that. So that’s something that’s coming up and I’m hopeful that now that it is all digital that you can now participate in it and we can share that with your listeners.Jay Ruderman: And we’ve had some very successful people go through that program.Tiffany Smith-Anoa’i: Oh, yes, absolutely. I mean so many people have come out of Showcase, from Tiffany Haddish, to Kate McKinnon, Randall Park. So many people have been part of Showcase that are now – and they didn’t need Showcase, let me tell you. They were already talented but they just were able to have that stage and they’ve grown on to so many really, really great careers right now and we’re really proud that they even grace us with their presence.Jay Ruderman: You’ve had a tremendous impact and you will continue to have a great impact. Let me end by asking you more or a general philosophical question. Our lives are very fast-paced and as you said, it’s like 24/7 with social media and people consuming content. How do you think the entertainment industry is going to evolve to remain relevant to people’s lives and how do you think it will remain socially responsible?Tiffany Smith-Anoa’i: I think that it will remain relevant because right now more than ever, we still need escapism. We still need creativity. We still need television shows and whether you like to watch it on the box in your home or on the computer or in your hand, with your phone. There are those options.So I feel that that will always remain relevant. The art of storytelling is going nowhere. I will say that in telling this in a social justice way and telling this with this type of lens, the more that we can create space for more stories, then we are able to see much more within that realm. So that’s where I think – and that’s where I also feel that with streaming platforms, with other ways of social media, people are already telling their stories and they don’t need a network to say yes to them and I love that. I love that people are creating stories on their own devices, short stories, films, whatever that it is and we are benefiting there.Just similar to you doing this podcast right now. There are so many podcasts that people are discovering at this time, that they might not have known about before. So that’s what leaves me really, really hopeful for the industry and knowing that there is space for all of that to coexist.Jay Ruderman: So I totally agree with you that I think storytelling will always be with us and in many ways storytelling is more impactful and more empowering in breaking down stigma than anything else.When people are relaxed in consuming content that’s diverse and inclusive, it will impact people and change the face of our country. You are a pioneer. I’m so proud to know you and thank you for spending the time with us on this podcast.I just hope that more people in the industry will recognize you and CBS Viacom and the leadership you’ve had and will follow your example.Tiffany Smith-Anoa’i: No, I really appreciate it. Thanks for taking the time to even speak with me. You know I adore you, your organization, everything that you all stand for and it’s really truly my honor to be a partner with you as we continue to watch this change together.Jay Ruderman: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.[All Inclusive is a production of the Ruderman Family Foundation. Our key mission is the full inclusion of people with disabilities in all aspects of society. You can find All Inclusive on Apple Podcast, Google Play, Spotify and Stitcher. To view the show notes, transcripts or to learn more, go to www.RudermanFoundation.org/allinclusive. Have an idea for a podcast? Be sure to tweet at @jayruderman.]

Jay Ruderman (00:00): Authentic representation in the entertainment industry of people with disabilities is something that the Ruderman Family Foundation has been involved with for some time now. While there have been some improvements lately, such as at the Sundance Film Festival making Crip Camp, a movie about summer camp for people with disabilities in the 1970s and the Disability Rights Movement, a major piece of their festival this year, and Zack Gottsagen presenting an award at the Oscars in February, Hollywood is still lagging behind when it comes to the inclusion of people with disabilities. Speaker 2 (00:40): All Inclusive, a podcast on inclusion, innovation, and social justice, with Jay Ruderman. Jay Ruderman (00:51): I'm Jay Ruderman, host of All Inclusive. And we have with us today two people who've always made inclusion for people with disabilities an important aspect in their movies, acclaimed filmmakers and Morton E. Ruderman Award in Inclusion honorees, Peter and Bobby Farrelly. Jay Ruderman (01:06): I'm also excited to announce that we're running a giveaway right now to spread some joy during this season. From December 14th to January 15th, we're giving away one iPad per week for five weeks. That's five iPads. To enter, you simply go to my Twitter, Instagram, or Facebook, @JayRuderman, follow me, and comment on the weekly contest post with the hashtag, #AllInclusiveiPad Contest to enter to win. We'll draw a random winner each Friday, so enter now. You must be 18 or over and in the United States to participate. Jay Ruderman (01:43): Okay. So welcome Peter and Bobby. You guys grew up in Rhode Island and became acclaimed filmmakers. Tell me how it happened, how you guys started out, and how you got into the business? Peter Farrelly (01:57): The general way we tell the story is we had the ability to fail a lot early on in life. And so when we decided in our 20s to go out to LA and start writing, nobody tried to stop us. I remember I talked to a buddy of mine who went to Yale. He was like one of the top guys in our school class in high school. And he said once he went to Yale, he was on a path. He was either going to business school or law school, a certain track. It's hard to hop off that track, and then say, "Hey, I want to take a wild risk and go make movies." Peter Farrelly (02:34): We weren't on any track. So when we did it, when we said, "Hey, Ma, Dad, we're going to go to start writing movies and see what happens." They were like, "Awesome, good for you." There was nothing else going on. So that was kind of our advantage, honestly. I always tell kids when I speak at high schools and colleges, "Failure could be your friend a lot." It pivots you. It changes your direction in ways that may ultimately turn out well for you. Bobby Farrelly (03:02): But also, when we were in high school and college, Pete, I remember that you were studying accounting, and I was studying geology in college. We had no idea that 10 years later we'd be filmmakers. We literally didn't. It never even crossed our minds. So that's what he's talking about is that the path that we were going down just didn't work out for us, so we tried something new. Bobby Farrelly (03:26): And it wasn't until our mid to late 20s that all of this started to happen for us. So there was a lot of kind of flailing for a little bit. And it was a little... I remember that time of life was like didn't know what was going on with ourselves really. But we were having fun, and it brought us to LA, and what we were doing was kind of exciting when we started writing screenplays. Peter Farrelly (03:53): It took us nine years to get a movie made. But in those nine years, we were selling scripts and meeting people and getting better as writers, and it was fun. We had a great time. It wasn't a hard time. People say, "Boy, those must have been tough years." No, they were the best years. It was great. Bobby Farrelly (04:07): We were waiting tables and driving limos and all that too, certainly a little bit, but it was all a lot of fun. It was. Peter Farrelly (04:15): I remember, if I could say one thing, I remember the first time it ever occurred to me that, hey, maybe we could do that. And I think it's when Airplane came out, and I think that's 1980 or '79, '80, something like that. And I remember thinking, I saw the guys, the Zucker brothers and Jim Abrams on Letterman or one of those shows, and they just seemed like normal guys. I had always had an image of what a writer would be like as sort of different than me. And I thought, "Well, those are guys like us. And we tell jokes. And what if we [crosstalk 00:04:45]?" Bobby Farrelly (04:45): Where were they from, Wisconsin or- Peter Farrelly (04:47): They were from Wisconsin. Bobby Farrelly (04:47): Milwaukee or something like that? Peter Farrelly (04:49): Yeah, I remember that was the seed, and started thinking it's doable. And then a few years later, when we got the courage, went for it. Jay Ruderman (04:56): So were you involved in comedy before you started writing? Peter Farrelly (04:58): No, not remotely. Jay Ruderman (05:01): And just how did you get into writing? Were you always good writers? I mean, it takes a lot of discipline to write something and bring it to fruition. Bobby Farrelly (05:09): I got to hand it to Pete here in that when we were doing that thing where we were flailing on our jobs, he did just say, "Hey, you know what? I'm going to try something new in my life." And he quit his job and dedicated himself to writing a book. And that's what got the writing off and running. And our parents and everyone was like, "What? Writing? You're not a writer, are you?" "I want to be." And so, that was it. So he sat down and wrote and [crosstalk 00:05:41]- Peter Farrelly (05:41): No, we weren't good writers. We got better as we went along. But like in high school or any school, grammar school, I never wrote a fictional paper. Nobody ever said, "Hey, make up a story," which I could have done well, I think. It was always you had to do an essay or something, book report or that. And that kind of writing to this day, I'm not good at. So there was no indication that we could write, no. Jay Ruderman (06:05): So what was the first thing that brought you out to the West Coast? Peter Farrelly (06:08): I was in grad school in New York and my buddy and I, Bennett Yellin, we wrote a screenplay. I was working on a book. He was working on a book of short stories, and we realized you can't make a living doing this. At that time, if you sold the book, you'd get five or $10,000, and it takes two, three years to write a book. So it wasn't a living. But we knew that screenplays sold for more, so we kicked off a screenplay. It was called Dust to Dust, and it was about two dumb guys who work at a down and out funeral parlor. They had layaway sales and, "Don't get buried with high prices." Peter Farrelly (06:42): And basically, it was Harry and Lloyd from Dumb and Dumber. It was those two characters. And we wrote this thing about these guys working at a down and out funeral parlor who pick up a load of, it was supposed to be a body, but it's loaded with coke, and they don't go where they're supposed to go because they're they're idiots. And they go all over town. They got bad guys chasing them. Peter Farrelly (07:00): And it had some laughs in it. And the Zucker brothers and Eddie Murphy Productions simultaneously wanted the script. So the Zuckers flew us out. And when we landed, we had two jobs. Bobby Farrelly (07:15): Can you remind me how they got the script, the Zucker brothers and Eddie Murphy? Peter Farrelly (07:18): Yeah, the Zucker brothers, it was like just pure luck. The Zucker brothers, Jerry Zucker was in a Hebrew dance class with Bennett Yellin's sister. They were Orthodox Jewish, the Yellins. And they were at a Hebrew dance class and Bennett had told me, he said, "Hey, my sister is actually in this dance class with David Zucker. So if we write this script, we can get it to him." That was part of the inspiration. Peter Farrelly (07:46): And sure enough, we finished it. We gave it to her, and she gave it to him, and he took it, and he read it. It was miraculous. Simultaneously, I had a date with this girl in New York one night. Only time I ever went out with her, and I told her, "I just finished the screenplay." She's, "Oh, give it to me." Because her parents had just moved to Alpine, New Jersey, and Eddie Murphy lived right next door to her family. And she said, "This will give me an excuse to go over and meet Eddie. I want to go say, "Hi," I'll give him your script. I said, "Excellent." Peter Farrelly (08:14): So I gave it to her, the next day, she called me, she said, "I gave it to him. He took it." I said, "You're kidding?" She said, "No. I saw him out front, ran over, and gave it to him." But I figured he's going in the house, tossing it in the trash. Peter Farrelly (08:23): The same week that the Zucker brothers called us and said, "Hey, we like this. Come on out," I was watching Letterman, and Eddie Murphy was on it. And Letterman says, "What's this story about your neighbor gave you some kind of script or something? What's this?" And he said, "Yeah, my neighbor gave me a script, and it's really good, and we want to do it." And he said the name of it, which is Dust to Dust. And the next day, I called Eddie Murphy Productions in LA... By the way, I hadn't even written my phone number on the script, and her family was on vacation, so they didn't know how to get in touch with her. And I called them, and they said, "Yeah, we've been trying to reach you." So it was kind of a mini miracle, we got two deals. Peter Farrelly (09:03): That's a major miracle. Bobby Farrelly (09:05): Yeah, yeah. Jay Ruderman (09:06): So it's a lot of hard work, but a little bit of luck also? Bobby Farrelly (09:08): Yes, yes. Jay Ruderman (09:09): So how did you guys, as brothers, begin to work together? Peter Farrelly (09:13): Well, even from the beginning, when I was writing with Bennett, Bobby, he was in another business, but I'd give him the script. And he'd go through it and he'd punch it up and he'd say, "Cut this. I love this. Do that." He was basically doing a pass on the script for us and with no credit. And then finally, once we got out to LA, I called him, and I could see he wasn't burning it up back home. So I said, "Why don't you come out and write with us?" So then it became a three-way team, me, Bobby, and Bennett. Jay Ruderman (09:43): So tell me about growing up with your parents and what influence that had on your life. You do a lot of comedy, but your values come through in your work. So tell me a little bit about growing up and the influence that they had on you. Bobby Farrelly (09:55): My father was a... We grew up in a what we would call a small town, rural town, in Rhode Island, outside of Providence. And our father was a doctor in town. So he was well-respected, and he had a lot of responsibility. And so he certainly made us behave ourselves just so that we didn't embarrass him. Bobby Farrelly (10:18): But at the same time, he and my mom had a wicked sense of humor. And so at home, we'd always laugh a lot and sit around the dinner table and tell stories about what happened that day. And it was kind of like a little contest to see who could make each other laugh the most. It was sort of a daily thing, and I don't know. Bobby Farrelly (10:38): So I think that's where our storytelling came from is just being at home. And we were allowed to laugh, but you had to laugh within certain rules because my father was very strict, and he wasn't irreverent at all. He was funny, but you had to behave. Jay Ruderman (10:54): There were boundaries. Peter Farrelly (10:55): Yeah. But also he was a, even though my father growing up, by the way, when we were growing up, he was always a Republican. He was extremely liberal in other ways, like every summer we always had inner city kids staying with us for the summer. And he was involved in the Fresh Air program. He believed a lot in giving back. Not that all Republicans don't, it's just that he was more liberal than most Republicans, at least today, are in a lot of ways, in the current climate, I'll say. Peter Farrelly (11:25): And so, there was a lot of diversity around the house and in our lives, and also in our neighborhood too. We happened to have, we've talked about this a lot, friends with disabilities, just coincidentally. And so we were around it a lot. Bobby Farrelly (11:48): It was a different day in age, as you know, Jay, when your parents would say on a Saturday morning, "Go on out and be home by dinner time." And so you'd go out, and you could go miles away from home. And I don't think as many people do that nowadays. You were out a lot, and so, you would see all the kids in the neighborhood. And some of them were what we would call mentally retarded at the time, and we'd hang out with them. They'd just be part of the gang. If we were playing touch football, they'd be in it. They'd play with you. And I don't know, I remember growing up with those kids. And when we started writing our stories, we included them, those people, in the stories. And I think it was a big part of our writing, Speaker 2 (12:36): You're listening to All Inclusive with Jay Ruderman. You can learn more, view the show notes and transcripts at rudermanfoundation.org/allinclusive. Jay Ruderman (12:47): Please remember to subscribe, rate, and review us wherever you are listening. Jay Ruderman (12:54): So you were writing based on your background, how you grew up. There was no ideological agenda, like saying, "Listen, I really want to push this element of including people with disabilities in our writing and in our movies"? It just sort of came naturally? Bobby Farrelly (13:12): Definitely not early on. I mean, we didn't think like that. And when it was brought to our attention that we hadn't been using enough people with disabilities early on in our careers, we realized that was an oversight. And then we started, yes, then we were aware. And not in a huge way, it's just in a way where it would just be fair. 20% of the population has disabilities, and if you don't have something like that in your movie, it's not a real world, for one thing. And we were trying to write reality. We wanted people to recognize the world they were in. So it just seemed natural to us. And then we were aware of it, but not that aware. We weren't making a huge statement, I will say that. We were first trying to entertain. Peter Farrelly (14:00): No, no. Right. Jay Ruderman (14:00): But you were receptive to those conversations. You weren't just blowing them off. Because I think a lot of people would blow them off and say, "Okay, yeah, you're telling me there's not enough representation. But, okay, not my issue. I'm doing something else." Peter Farrelly (14:12): No. And it didn't take much, it was one friend of ours who's quadriplegic who I was with when he broke his neck, Danny Murphy, who said after Dumb and Dumber, "Hey, what's going on? I didn't see a lot of disability in there." And I was like, "You're right," and that changed it right then. And also, because we're very comfortable, we had two friends who broke their necks in high school, Danny Murphy and [Peter Bohack 00:14:39]. And so, we had wheelchairs all around us. Everybody was in vans, going to parties, and stuff like that. It seemed, of course, you'd have to do that. We just hadn't done it the first time. We weren't thinking about it. Jay Ruderman (14:50): So Danny ended up being in a lot of your movies. Peter Farrelly (14:53): Yeah. Jay Ruderman (14:53): He wasn't a trained actor. I mean, where did the decision come from to say, "Okay, I think you should be in our movies"? Bobby Farrelly (15:00): Well, I think it was that day when he said, "Hey, how come there's no one with disabilities in your movie?" Then we said, "All right, fine. You're in the next one." And so we kind of called him out. Peter Farrelly (15:08): We said, "Start acting." He took a lot of classes. Bobby Farrelly (15:11): And he did. He took acting classes, and he did what he could do to take it very seriously. Actually, he did take it very seriously. Peter Farrelly (15:20): He improved a lot too. Bobby Farrelly (15:22): Yeah, he ended up doing some stage acting and he became an actor. He became a professional actor. But it was kind of like putting him on the spot because he was putting us on the spot. And so it worked out well. Peter Farrelly (15:36): But also, we learned a lot from him because he moved to LA to act after. He really got the bug and wanted to do it. He moved to LA, and then we started realizing how difficult it was because he was our friend. Peter Farrelly (15:48): First of all, it was almost impossible, rare when someone in a wheelchair would even get an audition. And if he did, most of the time, or not most of the time, but a lot of the time, he would get to the audition, and they'd have to come out and audition him out on the sidewalk because he couldn't get in the building. It's like they literally didn't have the accessibility to get him in the building and up the stairs, so they'd come out. And he'd be auditioning right on the sidewalk with people walking back and forth. It was awful. And so, that opened our eyes. Jay Ruderman (16:23): And he's not the only person. I mean, you've included many different actors with disabilities throughout your career in your films. At what point did you guys say, "Okay, well, we're really leading in this business in terms of having more authenticity of disability in our film"? Peter Farrelly (16:39): We never thought that. Bobby Farrelly (16:41): Today was the first day [crosstalk 00:16:45]. Peter Farrelly (16:42): Yeah. Bobby Farrelly (16:45): No, honestly, you guys are recognizing it, I guess. We never did. We never said, "Hey, this is what we're doing, and we're good at it." Peter Farrelly (16:52): And we don't deserve it because honestly we haven't done much. We put some people with disabilities in the movies, but that is... I can tell you, unfortunately, like 30 stories of people with disabilities who we tried to help get a project off the ground or get this going and didn't succeed. Putting people in movies is the easy part of what we're trying to do. And it's been an uphill climb for all of these things. So we don't see ourselves like that. We're just trying to make them represented fairly, and that's it. Bobby Farrelly (17:24): Yeah, this business, Jay, anyway, I don't care if you're completely able-bodied or not, it's very difficult. It's very difficult to find work, it's very difficult to get work, and to keep work, keep working. And so, these guys from the disability community, they don't even get a chance to audition to do that. But even if they do, it doesn't mean they're going to get a role or find a good part. It's just there's so many people trying for so few parts that it's just extremely difficult. Bobby Farrelly (17:54): I think one of the things that we did do, though, was sort of open up the possibility that we'd consider people from the disabled community. And if they're good, we'll cast them, but they're not all good. They're not all great actors, and it's just difficult, but at least they have the opportunity. Peter Farrelly (18:14): Yeah. I'm proud of the fact that our casting agent, Rick Montgomery, he doesn't, if you, say, the girlfriend walks in the room, and sits down to have a cup of coffee, he's not thinking one certain thing. He's thinking, "Okay, this could be a woman with hearing... a deaf woman. It could be a blind woman. It could be a this woman. It could be a that woman, black, white." He's very good because we trained him of not pigeonholing a thing. Just because you don't say the person is hard of hearing doesn't mean they can't be. You could be anything. Peter Farrelly (18:56): And the casting agents have to start opening doors up because a wheelchair doesn't really... There's not many roles that you can't be in a wheelchair for. There's a few. But there's most of them in a movie or a TV show, I mean, there could be somebody in the wheelchair, but it doesn't have to be written as such. So he has to read those people and will pick the best one. And hopefully they're getting their chance, people with disabilities. Jay Ruderman (19:22): Do you think that the industry, I mean, it seems like the industry is very self-aware of the influence they have on society. I mean, just in the past few years, you've seen minority groups really shoot ahead in terms of representation, African-American community, Asian community, Hispanic, LBGTQ. And I think, in my point-of-view, I think it's had an impact on our society. So do you think that the entertainment industry is aware of the power they have to influence public attitude? Peter Farrelly (19:54): Positively, but their first goal is to make money. They are aware. They can make changes. And honestly, it was only when those changes that you're talking about, like hiring more women, diversity, color, this, that, when that started becoming demanded of them, and if they didn't have it, people wouldn't go to the movies. And so they were like, "Okay, yeah, let's do this." It's like Black Panther, that worked out, let's do another one, that kind of thing. And they are aware of this, but they're still behind on this one. They have not done anything. These are the forgotten ones. Bobby Farrelly (20:29): Absolutely. This is the one group that is completely forgotten, that is totally under-represented. Peter Farrelly (20:34): Right. Jay Ruderman (20:34): And we know, I mean, as you mentioned before, 20% of the population has a disability. We know that in the United States and around the world, they're the poorest and most segregated part of our population. And yet, you see a lot of disability on film. In the last three decades, half of the men that have won the best actor Oscar have won for playing a disability, and they themselves were not. They were able-bodied. Jay Ruderman (21:03): So where is that coming from? It's like the stories are there, the stories are selling. They're getting acclaim. But people with disabilities are not getting cast for those roles. Peter Farrelly (21:14): Well, that's about to end. Jenny Gold wrote a great op-ed piece, I think it was in Variety, it might've been Hollywood Reporter, about that very thing. And she termed it cripface, like somebody wearing blackface. It's not acceptable anymore. And that this won't be acceptable, either, the idea of using people without disabilities in disabled roles, especially since there's so many people out there who could do these roles perfectly fine. But nobody's pushed back yet, now, it's starting to get pushback. And they're going to be embarrassed, and they're going to stop doing it. Peter Farrelly (21:49): I had a horrible thing happen about a year ago. I was in Vancouver, and we had a role for a college age, a guy in a wheelchair. And I called the biggest casting agent in Vancouver. And I said, "Hey, I want to see a bunch of guys, college age, in wheelchairs, actors." And she said, "Well, we don't have any." I said, "What are you talking about?" She goes, "We don't have any up here." I said, "Canada?" She goes, "We have no actors that you're describing, college age men in wheelchairs." I was like, "Well, they're all over town. They're everywhere. And they want to act." And they were behind us. Peter Farrelly (22:26): So I hooked them up with media access people down here who represent people with disabilities. And I got her on the phone. She felt horrible, by the way. She was embarrassed, the casting agent. And she said, "I'm sorry, what do we do?" And I said, "You got to wake up. You got to change." Peter Farrelly (22:46): And she called Allen Rucker, who's a gem. We had a conference call. And basically she got the ball rolling up there. Because this had happened, believe it or not, like a couple of weeks earlier when I said, "We need a little person for a role," and she says, "Well, we have two." I said, "No, no, no. I want to read a bunch of little people." And she said, "Well, we only have two." And so, we actually had to fly somebody in from the States, a little person, and Nic Novicki, who's unbelievable, he's one of the best actors on the planet, by the way, and he killed it. Peter Farrelly (23:17): But it's just change is happening. It's happening fast. And it only happens when you shame them a little. And she was embarrassed, and she realized that this is an overlooked population. Jay Ruderman (23:28): So do you think that, I don't know, 10, 20 years down the road, whatever, we're going to look back and see inauthentic portrayal of disability the same way we would look at inauthentic portrayal of other minorities as we do now? Bobby Farrelly (23:40): I certainly hope so. I certainly hope that we look back and say that it's not inauthentic anymore. Because, like we're pointing out, all these great roles, it'd be great if people with real disabilities were playing the people that had disabilities in the story. And right now, that's not really the case. So we're hoping to go that direction. Peter Farrelly (24:02): I think it's changing quickly. And also, the movie that you're familiar with Crip Camp, which is coming out this month, that movie is a game changer. I think if people see it, and I highly recommend you see it, not because of it's educational, though it is extremely educational, it's one of the funniest movies I've seen in the last five years. I laughed out loud 15 or 20 times and bawled my eyes out. Peter Farrelly (24:25): It's a true story of this camp in the 1970s in upstate New York for kids with disabilities and adults with disabilities who had suddenly, because the guy who ran it was the lunatic, gave them ultimate freedom. And it's all the beautiful things that happened at that camp and the friendships that were made and how those people came on to be the leaders of the disability movement in the late '70s and '80s, and to this day. I'm hoping that movie will change people's thinking in a huge way. Jay Ruderman (24:57): The one thing, I've known Judy Heumann for a long time, and she's one of the leaders in the history of our country on the Disability Rights Movement. And there's so many things, she's one of the people that was at the camp and became a leader in the movement. And there's so many things I didn't know about her. I mean, there was a full-fledged Disability rights Movement in this country in the '70s and '80s. And I think so many people are not aware of it, yet, it's a movement that existed. Jay Ruderman (25:25): And I think that great thing about Crip Camp, and I hope a lot of people see it, is they have the actual footage, not only of these kids, young kids who are teenagers or younger at camp, but then as they move through life into their 20s and 30s and become major activists. Peter Farrelly (25:41): This is going to be a historical document, I predict, forever because of the footage. It's unbelievable, the footage. It was also Jim LeBrecht directed it, and he's in it. It's just one of the most... The Obamas helped produce it. Bobby Farrelly (25:58): That's right. Peter Farrelly (25:59): So, yeah, I mean- Bobby Farrelly (26:01): People are going to want to check it out when it comes out on Netflix. Peter Farrelly (26:03): It went right to my top three documentaries of all time. Bobby Farrelly (26:05): Wow. Peter Farrelly (26:05): Yeah, it's up there. American Movie, if you haven't seen it, see it. And I also loved Icarus a couple years ago, which is phenomenal. But this one's right there, right at the top. Speaker 2 (26:20): All Inclusive is a production of the Ruderman Family Foundation. Our key mission is the full inclusion of people with disabilities in all aspects of society. You can find All Inclusive on Apple Podcast, Google Play, Spotify, and Stitcher. To view the show notes, transcripts, or to learn more, go to rudermanfoundation.org/allinclusive. Have an idea for a podcast? Be sure to tweet @JayRuderman.

Speaker 2 (00:00): Authentic representation in the entertainment industry of people with disabilities is something that the Ruderman Family Foundation has been involved with for some time now. While there have been some improvements lately, such as at the Sundance Film Festival, making Crip Camp, a movie about summer camp for people with disabilities in the 1970s and the Disability Rights Movement, a major piece of their festival this year. And Zack Gottsagen presenting an award at the Oscars in February. Hollywood is still lagging behind when it comes to the inclusion of people with disabilities. Speaker 2 (00:40): All Inclusive, a podcast on inclusion, innovation, and social justice, with Jay Ruderman. Jay Ruderman (00:51): I'm Jay Ruderman host of All Inclusive. And we have with us today, two people who've always made inclusion for people with disabilities an important aspect in their movies. Acclaimed filmmakers and Morton E. Ruderman Award in inclusion honorees, Peter and Bobby Farrelly. Jay Ruderman (01:06): I'm also excited to announce that we're running a giveaway right now to spread some joy during this season. From December 14th to January 15th, we're giving away one iPad per week for five weeks. That's five iPads. To enter you simply go to my Twitter, Instagram or Facebook at Jay Ruderman. Follow me and comment on the weekly contest post with the hashtag all inclusive iPad contest. Enter to win. We'll draw a random winner each Friday. So enter now. You must be 18 or over and in the United States to participate. Jay Ruderman (01:43): You know one thing Michelle Obama said fairly recently is that most of us get to know people who are not like ourselves through TV and film. And so the medium has tremendous power, but you said it's a business. So, you sort of have like a chicken and the egg, you want to get actors with disabilities who have some notoriety so they can become more regular in film and TV, but they have to get a shot for it to happen in the first place. So I give you guys a lot of credit because you've given a lot of people their start and you know that this is an issue that society needs to be more well aware of. Can you talk a little bit about your influence on other people in the industry? Now that you're speaking out about this and you've spoken out for a while, but how do you influence others who are making movie and TV? Peter Farrelly (02:32): Well, I can't say we've had a huge influence. I think that we've done what we've done and we've been involved in media access, like I've passed on, tried to get Canadian people involved. I've done that kind of stuff. We've opened ourselves up to it. But from this point forward, we were going to do more because it time has come and we really didn't get as active as we should have. We did what we did, but we didn't think about the when we weren't making movies and that's why we're doing this thing tonight with you, because we want to, I hate awards. I don't like getting awards. But this one is an important one because we're drawing attention to something that nobody's talking about which is people with disabilities not being allowed in the door for not just entertainment jobs, but jobs across the world. Peter Farrelly (03:22): As we've stated before the unemployment rate's at 4% in our country right now, 70% for people with disabilities. There's 20% of the population is disabled and in movies and TV, it's represented 3%. It's just kind of a moment right now where we think that things were about to change and we want to be part of that change, we want to help out. Bobby Farrelly (03:45): Yeah. I think I might be going a little off base here, but one of the things I have learned along the way is that in order to get more people with disabilities into movies, you have to consider them for all roles. They don't have to just be the one part where they're that super great friend that you have, like an angelic role. You can consider it for any role. You can consider them for the bad guy, the good guy, the duplicitous person. And if you open up your mind and you think that they could play anything, they don't have to just be portrayed one particular way, that in itself opens up a lot more opportunity. And honestly, the people that we've met from the disabled community, they love that. People love to play a role that it's not always the good person. It's fun to be the villain. And so just considering the people in the disabled community for these roles opens up a lot of doors. Jay Ruderman (04:44): So you've made many movies and many successful movies, any of them your favorites, ones that you look back on you're like, "I really liked making that, it came out really well." Peter Farrelly (04:56): This is a cliche, but, and every director will always say, they're like your movies are like your kids. So it's hard to say pick one over another. But I do have to say making The Ringer was probably the most fun I ever had in my life. And we produced the ringer with Johnny Knoxville and it was backed by the special Olympics about a guy who tries to fix the special Olympics. Gets in there he makes a bet and he's going to enter a race and he's bet on himself. But what he doesn't realize is they're good athletes A, and B though, he can fool the special Olympic officials, he can't fool the athletes themselves. And they ended up calling them on it and they all bonded. It's just a really uplifting movie, but what was so great about it is we had 150 kids in that movie with disabilities. Peter Farrelly (05:43): Most of them with down syndrome and as anybody who's been around people with down syndrome, they're the most loving people on the planet. And every morning you'd get there you get 20 minutes of hugs before you could start shooting. It was the warmest most beautiful set. And also we shot it in Austin, Texas. And I just remember how much joy I felt seeing packs of kids with disabilities, like 10 down syndrome kids together going down the street, having a ball and people stopping them and asking for autographs. "You guys in the movie, can we have an autograph?" I knew watching it, it was the happiest times of their lives. And so it was for me too, it was my best time ever making a movie. Bobby Farrelly (06:32): Yeah. That, that was a really fun movie. And it kind of indicative of why a lot of movies like that don't get made is that the studio was thinking, "No, you can't make a big comedy with all these disabled people. It'll look like you're making fun of them." And we were like, "Well we're absolutely not making fun of him." The guy who's in the wrong here is the Johnny Knoxville character. He thinks one thing about him, but he learns otherwise. He learns that there are a lot more able-bodied than he thinks they are. So it was only when we talked to Eunice Shriver and the Shrivers and the special Olympic people on all of them that they said, "No, we'd love it if you'd make this movie because that nobody's making these kinds of movies." Bobby Farrelly (07:09): And so the studio grudgingly agreed, but it was a little bit risky but very proud of it. Peter Farrelly (07:16): Well, here's the other thing is that the studio said, "How can you do that with 150 kids with disabilities? They're not going to be there on time. They're not going to know their lines. You're going to take forever to shoot stuff." They were the best ones on the set. They all were on time. They all knew their lines. It was the other guys who were like, "Are you kidding me? Are you joking? Johnny, get your shit together." No, they were the most prepared people on the set. And that's the other myth about people with disabilities. That it's somehow going to cost you more money, slow you down, slow down productivity. It's not true at all. And so I this isn't just for people in the entertainment industry. This is for people everywhere. If you have a company, look around, think about it. If you don't have people with some disability or another, you're not being truly fair. And so just get them in the door and interview them. And you're going to find out you're going to end up hiring a lot of people with disabilities. Jay Ruderman (08:13): So our foundation did a study not so long ago about, because you talked about money and this being a business, the marketability of the entertainment business and the people want authenticity. They want to see authenticity, they'll pay for authenticity. And I think there's a lot of stereotypes out there, including in the entertainment industry about people not being able to act, which you've proven is not the case. But I think that we've reached an age where people want to see people like their friends and their neighbors and their family members on screen. Yeah. I mean, you think of how hugely impactful it will be to those people and their family, but just the general population. Jay Ruderman (08:56): I've had the privilege to know business leaders and major figures in industry who hire people with disabilities, but they all have a personal connection. So I think the challenge in the country and around the world is to move beyond the people that have that personal connection to people that don't just say, "Listen, hiring a person with disability is, they're 20% of the population. It's the right thing to do, and they're good workers and it'll help improve the morale and the production of your company" Peter Farrelly (09:26): There's if you've ever seen Hamilton and most people have by now, it's the all time, it's just an amazing play. But Thomas Jefferson is played by a black man. And I think George Washington too, and Hamilton and the whole thing. You think about that for 10 seconds and then you're beyond it. And you're watching a thing and color doesn't matter. Race doesn't matter, nothing matters, except they're telling the story about these people. And that's how we would like the entertainment world to eventually get to that point where you can have people in wheelchairs and blind people and deaf people and whatever the disability is. People with cerebral palsy and in roles that you would never expect them to be in because you going to find that you won't notice it very quickly. Jay Ruderman (10:15): So I just want to get back to the movie making process. How do you come up with an idea and how does that whole process go from an idea that you have, you guys might work together to becoming a script, to getting made into a movie? Peter Farrelly (10:28): Sometimes we can find a script, like in the case of there's something about Mary, it was a script written by Ed Decter and John Strauss, a couple of our buddies. They'd written it a few years earlier. We'd read it, we really liked it. We liked the set up particularly a guy who he's in his 30s and he doesn't have a girlfriend he's excuse me, never really been in love. And then we find out there was one girl in high school, but she moved away and his friend convinces him "We'll track her down and see if she's single." And he hires a private I, tracks her down. The private I falls in love with her comes back reports that she's got all sorts of issues. And she's got a bunch of kids and she's all sorts of problems and he still wants to find her. Peter Farrelly (11:08): And we thought there's a great movie there. So we took that. And then we wrote what we thought was missing, which was the first act like, why does he love her so much? So we hadn't seen that. That movie had started at him looking for her. So we thought we have to write a first act where- Bobby Farrelly (11:25): Well, I remember and nothing against the script that they had written, but it had been developed at a studio and they were getting a lot of notes from a lot of people. And he was supposed to be madly in love with this girl, but there wasn't anything about her that seemed so much that you'd fall head over heels for her and remember her for the rest of your life. And so we did work on that. Bobby Farrelly (11:46): And really one of the big things that, that worked for us was that she had a brother who was intellectually challenged he was based on a real guy that we know growing up. But her relationship with him was really something that was very endearing. You knew that you was a solid person just because of how much she loved and cared for her brother and how much of a big part of her life he was. And so that was something that we had changed and it really helped a lot. Peter Farrelly (12:14): And we were able to put a couple of the guys that we grew up with, Jimmy Gifford and Warren Taschen in the movie. And yeah, that's when we really started realizing that we have to do more and more and more. And incidentally that movie got good reviews, but one or two reviews, not many, but a couple of them said, they felt uncomfortable watching the brother, Mary's brother for whatever reason. But we never got one negative letter ever about that relationship, we always get positive letters. We got letters from people saying, "Hey, I saw the movie Mary and I have a sister with an intellectual disability and I realized I haven't done enough with her. And you've inspired me to do more." I got a lot of letters. It was really interesting to see the real world response to it as opposed to some critics who thought it was not appropriate. Jay Ruderman (13:09): Well, the casting was amazing. I mean, you guys pick, great actors. I have to ask you who wrote the scene, where he has the beans above the frank? Bobby Farrelly (13:19): Well, Pete and I wrote it. I think he came up with franks and beans if I recall correctly. Our writing is like we don't really remember who did what, but I do remember that one is we thought something's going to happen on this date and you know what could happen that's embarrassing? And we thought about it long and hard and drew on some real life experiences that we had that believe it or not, it was based off stuff that had happened at our house. Peter Farrelly (13:48): And right now by the way, we're developing a musical, Something About Mary. Yeah. We've already written a few songs, it's a ball. And it's a whole different thing and it's a lot of laughs. Jay Ruderman (14:00): And the firefighter in that scene right there is a Boston comedian. Peter Farrelly (14:05): Yeah. That's Lenny Clarke. Bobby Farrelly (14:06): There is Lenny Clark and Steve Sweeney is the police officer. So yeah those two guys are in there. Peter Farrelly (14:12): Jackie Flynn was in there. Yeah Jackie was a cop in there, not in that scene, but a later scene. Bobby Farrelly (14:21): Then we always have a lot of friends and local Boston people in our movies yeah. Jay Ruderman (14:29): You're listening to all inclusive with Jay Ruderman, you can learn more view the show notes and transcripts at rudermanfoundation.org/allinclusive. Please remember to subscribe, rate and review us wherever you are listening. Jay Ruderman (14:47): Tell me about Shallow Hal. That's my favorite movie that you guys have made. And I think the story of disability just intertwined throughout that whole. Bobby Farrelly (14:59): Well it's funny, you should mention that because we just got, in the last couple of days, Gwyneth Paltrow came out and says, that's the movie that she's regretting having made. Yeah. Jay Ruderman (15:07): Why did she say that? Bobby Farrelly (15:11): I think she was not comfortable with the heaviness of the character or whatever. I'm not sure why, but I- Peter Farrelly (15:20): I think she forgot what it was about. It was about not judging people by how they look and rather look inside and to what kind of person they are. And that's where the beauty is. And in our story, Jack Black had bumped into Tony Robbins who had sort of put a spell on him. And so he could only see inner beauty and he fell in love with this girl that other that his friends might not have thought she was the prettiest girl, but she was such a beautiful person that all he could see was a luminous beauty. Bobby Farrelly (15:50): And by the way just to be clear, we're not saying that if you're heavy, you're not beautiful. It's just, he was shallow. In fact, we love all sizes, all types honestly. It's just that he was a shallow guy. So he didn't think that was attractive and had to learn what inner beauty was like. But in any case, Gwyneth was a pleasure to work with. We had a ball with her, so it was disappointing for her to see this but we have no regrets. We loved making it, we had Reen Kirby who was in it, he was born with spina bifida. And he's a guy from Vermont who we met up in Burlington one day and he did a phenomenal job in it. And it allowed us to do a lot of the stuff. He was an important part of that movie. Peter Farrelly (16:38): Absolutely. The people that I heard saying when we made that movie, that if I ever heard anyone saying, and it wasn't everyone, but if I heard someone saying, "Oh, they're making fun of fat people." I knew instantly that they hadn't seen the movie. They just thought they knew what it was about. Because if you see it, you'd realize that it's not, that it's the exact opposite of that. Bobby Farrelly (16:59): And we actually got that a little from The Ringer. The Ringer, we had an actress, I won't name her, but we offered her a role in The Ringer and she responded "No." She passed on the project and added that she was offended by the material. And I knew well, she obviously only read the opening where a guy's trying to fix a special Olympics, because if you read it to the end, you would see it's all about inclusivity and love and acceptance. Bobby Farrelly (17:26): So it's disappointing when people, and maybe the message doesn't come across all the time, the way we intend it. Maybe we're a little at fault there. I'm not saying we do everything perfectly, but we're bringing people in trying to get people more comfortable with people with disability and more accepting of them. Peter Farrelly (17:48): I remember when you had to meet with the board of the special Olympics. They were questioning like "How do we know that you guys aren't going to take this movie and make all the Olympic athletes look silly?" I know you're not going to do wrong by them. And I think you said, "Because I don't want to go to hell." Bobby Farrelly (18:05): Yeah. I believe there's a God. And I don't want to go to hell then, like, "Okay.'. Peter Farrelly (18:11): No, but the other guy said, "Well, I just want you to know this board, we do have the authority. We can send you to hell." Bobby Farrelly (18:16): I know, Eunice Kennedy Shriver was there. And she's one of the most important people in the world as far as helping changing people's perceptions of people with disabilities. Jay Ruderman (18:28): Well, if you've got the Shrivers behind you and Tim Shriver and Eunice I think you were in good company. Peter Farrelly (18:34): Peace Corps, special Olympics, best buddies all came from that family. Anthony Shriver started Best Buddies. And if you don't know what best buddies is, I'm sure most people is. It's basically Big Brothers with kids with some sort of intellectual disability, not always intellectual, but some sort of a disability. And it's the greatest thing you could ever do. I did it for 20 years until my buddy moved back to Boston. I still see him when I get back there. But it's just, it's just the greatest. It's like you go through life and you're always wondering if you're doing the right thing. Should I be here or should I be there? Should be there should be that. But when you're spending the day with your buddy you know you're exactly at the right place at the right time. And it's just a freeing peace comes over you. And that's the beauty of that program. Jay Ruderman (19:22): What's next? Anything exciting on the horizon for you guys? Peter Farrelly (19:27): Well, we just, we're doing a really interesting show on Quibi which is this new network. Bobby Farrelly (19:34): Which is a subscription network like Netflix, but it's meant to be watched on your phone or on your iPad. It's kind of geared towards millennials who watch a lot of things on their phones and iPads. So it's a subscription service for that. And it's coming out in April. Peter Farrelly (19:49): It's called The Now. And it's about a guy who is suicidal, opens with the guy who was suicidal and through a series of things can't bring himself to kill himself. So realizes he has to find a better way to live. And so he happens upon Eckhart Tolle's book, The Power of Now which is about living in the now. Most people fear the future or regret the past. That's how people live. Rarely are you in the now, the moment. By the way that you want to get in the moment, go to best buddies, be with your buddy. Peter Farrelly (20:22): You're in the moment. And this is a guy who was trying to learn how to live in the now. And it's a dark comedy because it's not easy to live in the now. You're on your way to a business meeting and somebody flags your car down, they need help and they need a ride the other direction, but you have a business meeting. What do you do? If you take the guy and you're living in the now helping the person who needs help right at that moment, you're messing something up that could hurt you later on. So it's a interesting story. Bobby Farrelly (20:48): Yeah. And we're pretty excited about it because with Quibi is real short episodes. The episodes only run from like six to 10 minute maximum. So it's a much quicker format. We have a show that's got about 14 or 15 episodes, 10 minute maximum, and a really good cast. Dave Franco and this kid Jimmy Tatro and O'Shea Jackson, Bill Murray, Daryl Hannah. So a really good cast and we're excited. Peter Farrelly (21:18): Yeah. And they release one episode a day for about two weeks. You get a 10 minute episodes. So wherever you are, you're on the train, on the subway, whatever you just put it on, you get 10 minutes, it's over. Bobby Farrelly (21:29): Listen, I hope it doesn't go to a 10 minute episodes everywhere. But I think that this will catch on because just watching them ourselves, these little 10 minute things, it's really fun, and it leaves you wanting more. You're like, "I can't wait until the next one." Peter Farrelly (21:43): Yeah. This all the idea was dreamed up by Jeffrey Katzenberg was really smart, successful guy out here in Hollywood. And so this is where he sees the future going. So we'll see if he's right. But he probably is. Jay Ruderman (21:58): For those of you that know me, I'm a huge Red Sox fan and Fever Pitch was a great movie that those of us in Red Sox nation loved. But one final question. Favorite Red Sox player of all time. Okay. Peter Farrelly (22:14): Good choice. I think Tony Conigliaro for me. Yeah. Tony C. Bobby Farrelly (22:19): We've been trying to do what we can to help Tony C, get his, he's number should be retired by the Red Sox. He was at that time, the youngest guy to have a 100 home runs. He would have been probably a Hall of Famer and he was struck down during a game in the game because of the game, not like off car accident or something. And so it seems to us that he should have that number retired. they don't retire a lot of numbers there, but Tony C. Bobby Farrelly (22:46): Yeah, there was something about whenever you're struck down, even before your prime it was really, it was heartbreaking. So I did love Tony C, but I love Johnny Damon till he tarnished himself a little by jumping over the Yankees. But for those moments when he was with us and particularly when we were making Fever Pitch, he was the man. Peter Farrelly (23:07): I was tickled to see Yaz's grandson get called up last year and killing it. He was really in the hell out of the ball. And that just made me so happy to see his strength ski up on the board again. 1967, I was 10 years old and that was the beginning of my lifelong love affair with baseball. Jay Ruderman (23:29): Yeah. Well, it's been a pleasure to talk to you guys and thank you for your time and thank you for your leadership. You've done great work and the comedy and everything you've accomplished. I wish you continued success. Peter Farrelly (23:41): And thank you. I appreciate what you're doing. You're changing the world. You really are. I appreciate it. Jay Ruderman (23:45): Thanks guys. Jay Ruderman (23:50): All Inclusive is a production of the Ruderman family Foundation. Our key mission is the full inclusion of people with disabilities in all aspects of society. You can find all inclusive on Apple podcast, Google Play, Spotify and Stitcher. To view the show notes, transcripts, or to learn more, go to rudermanfoundation.org/allinclusive. Have an idea for a podcast? Be sure to tweet @Jay Ruderman.

Guest- Michelle Wu (00:01):… because multiple generations of my family had fled the political situation, that was never going to be what I was supposed to do. My life changed suddenly when my mom had a mental health crisis and the bubble that my parents had constructed around, trying to keep our heads down, that’s impossible when you’re struggling, trying to access services.Speaker 2 (00:27):All Inclusive, a podcast on inclusion, innovation, and social justice, with Jay Ruderman.Host- Jay Ruderman (00:38):Hello, welcome to all inclusive. I’m Jay Ruderman. Today we’re thrilled to have Boston’s Michelle Wu with us for a conversation. Michelle was the first Asian-American woman to sit on the Boston City Council, and the first woman of color to chair the council. As a young woman, Michelle had to overcome challenging personal circumstances before attending Harvard Law School. Currently, in addition to juggling a family and her responsibilities on the city council, she’s launching a campaign for the office of mayor of the City of Boston. Michelle’s going to talk with us about her ideas and plans for the future of Boston.Host- Jay Ruderman (01:16):Hello, Michelle, thank you so much for joining me today on All Inclusive. We are living through really trying times with COVID and racial inequality and so many things going on, and you are a candidate for mayor of Boston and a member of the Boston City Council. And you have a young family and let’s just start off by saying like, how does your day go? Because you’re not in a normal campaign mode out there in the streets most times, although I heard that you are doing that, but just juggling your family, your spouse, your children, your extended family. How does your morning start and how does your day look?Guest- Michelle Wu (01:58):Yeah, it’s a lot. I think there’s so much on the shoulders of all families right now, and I am incredibly blessed and privileged to be in a two income earner household. And my partner is working and we are able to share and juggle some of these responsibilities, but it’s so much right now. So for example, why we are starting our conversations later the week, scheduled today is because things just can shift sometimes, I usually try to wake up, get a chunk of work done early in the morning. That is things around my team and different individual responses that I should be turning my attention to, planning, thinking, that kind of stuff before most people are awake. And then shift to getting the family ready for the day. My five-year-old is on remote learning, so having him all set up and breakfast done and in the right mindset to be able to do remote kindergarten.Guest- Michelle Wu (02:56):Getting the three-year-olds organized on his activities. Sometimes follows along, sometimes he’s doing other things with me or my husband, and then some of my own switching off during the day of when can we be in meetings? When do I have to be out of the house and therefore arrange for some other childcare situation? And I think there’s a reason why we sometimes as a society, don’t always associate professionalism with being a working parent, right? There’s this mindset that, “Oh, it’s so unusual to see moms with young kids or dads with young kids in positions of leadership.” And that is because we have made policy decisions as a society, not to provide the support and to in some ways to put up barriers to that. So I also see my role as being fully transparent about how hard all of this is, how it’s not graceful so that we can change that.Host- Jay Ruderman (03:50):Right. And I think that it’s normal. I think so many people in Boston and around the country are going through this right now and it’s admirable that you’re very open and honest about it and not trying to play a role that’s not exactly what you’re living day-to-day. So thank you for being so open. I want to talk to you about, you wrote an op-ed back in May and in The Boston Globe that really touched me and talked about your life. And you were open about your life, which is admirable because I think it touches so many people. You spoke about your mother and you spoke about her issues with mental health and psychosis and how at 23, you left your job and essentially, you were back at home raising your younger sisters and caring for your mother, and that really had a transformational impact on your life. So I’m wondering if you can just talk about that and what that was like and how that led to you being more interested in government?Guest- Michelle Wu (04:45):I’m someone who growing up never, ever thought about running for office or being in government, I didn’t see people who looked like me. And I realized later on that my parents had intentionally shielded my siblings and myself from getting involved in politics that in our family’s, multi-generational immigration story politics was associated with fear and famine and corruption. And so we never talked about it because multiple generations of my family had in some ways fled the political situation and what was happening, that was never going to be what I was supposed to do, what the kids in this next generation were supposed to do.Guest- Michelle Wu (05:28):My life changed suddenly when my mom had a mental health crisis. And the bubble that my parents had constructed around trying to keep our heads down and not worry about government politics, stay out of trouble, that’s impossible when you’re struggling, trying to access services, trying to make sense of the supports that are available. Taking care of my sisters and trying to get them into the right school placements, with the trauma happening at home, my mom and her healthcare situation, opening a family business.Guest- Michelle Wu (06:01):And so it was emotionally… For a long time I couldn’t even talk about what was happening at home with even my closest friends, just such stigma and such shock at what was happening. And I’ve now seen and heard just how frequent that is the case, just how many families are going through this. And again, we’re making choices as a society, as an economy, of what to make possible for people. And what people feel comfortable talking about, mental health and mental illness is such a central part of what I’m trying to increase access to and to take down barriers around.Host- Jay Ruderman (06:42):Well, you had a really, really trying time and you handled it from what I know admirably. And still went to Harvard Law School and moved your family to Boston. And I understand that your mother still lives in your home with you and you still play a caretaker role. So you have a lot going on, but I want to talk a little bit about stigma because you mentioned stigma in the Chinese immigrant community. But I think we find stigma throughout society. We’ve done a white paper on the first responders and the stigma that it plays because they’re afraid to come out and talk about stresses in their job. But everyone I think is facing some sort of stigma. So thank you for speaking up because so many people don’t address it. And I think so many lives can be saved and helped by talking openly about stigma. And I understand that you’ve made this a big part of what you talk about in your campaign and in your service on the council.Guest- Michelle Wu (07:38):That’s right. And in fact, I’ve actually through the process of sharing my family story and how difficult so much of that was, had the privilege to connect with so many folks who have gone through similar experiences and are doing a lot of work on it too. There’s some incredible research happening out of Mass General, for example, where the role of stigma as it affects, not just individuals decisions, but policy decisions and how much of a barrier different types of stigma are to changing this is huge, right?Guest- Michelle Wu (08:11):So one fact that was shared with me, from someone on this research team is around the changes over time in how we’ve seen health disparities close, right? And that over the last couple of decades, we’ve seen advances in many, many realms. And that gaps have narrowed when it comes to racial disparities, even though they are still way larger than they should be. We have seen some progress in narrowing, most types of gaps when it comes to life expectancy, when it comes to geography. The one place where there has been a very persistent gap that hasn’t changed almost at all over time is the life expectancy of someone who’s living with schizophrenia. And so you see how with all of our advances, with all of the outreach, with all the research and resources poured in, there’s still something about mental illness and how someone is perceived in society, particularly a certain set of symptoms that continues to be huge barriers that impact everything about their daily life and survival.Host- Jay Ruderman (09:17):Right. And I actually had a good friend in high school, there are certain points in people’s lives where schizophrenia will really come out and transitioning out of high school is one of them. He was housed at a state institution, which was terrible, and this institution has been done away with, but he ended up committing suicide. So people, I think are scared of mental illness and tend to shy away from it. But I think the more that we deal with it openly people will be able to get the help that they need. What do you think government can do better than they’re doing right now in order to alleviate this problem, or at least help do a better job in addressing it?Guest- Michelle Wu (09:57):Yeah. There’s different layers of where I think the responsibility and action lies. And we often think about this as a federal state issue, right? And it’s true that a huge part of why people are not able to access treatment and why we don’t think of mental health the same way as physical health is because the policy, when it comes to reimbursement and insurance, simply are different. It is that much harder to find treatment that works to be able to pay for it without going through all sorts of hoops and stresses and this and that. And we went through that with my mom too, especially because there was an additional language barrier and cultural considerations. Then to have a harder time getting that covered in a narrower pool of providers that we could work with. It was so difficult, even as someone who speaks English fluently.Guest- Michelle Wu (10:47):And so I think that’s the other piece when I think about particularly local government’s role in this, is that the accessibility so often is tied to zip code, wealth and English fluency. And when we think about the choices that families who are multi-lingual, or would like to see a deeper cultural connection, you receive better treatments when you feel comfortable and can identify with and have more options in terms of the representation within the provider field as well. And so that’s a huge part of it is supporting and encouraging mental health providers of color, especially multilingual providers, and then making sure that we’re making that financially feasible for all families access as well.Host- Jay Ruderman (11:35):Right. Right. That sounds right. Let me just ask you, on a personal level during COVID, where you’re responsible for constituents, for policy, looking at the local policy, but also state and federal, and yet having young children and a spouse and family and neighbors and so forth and seeing the impact and the anxiety that it’s… What is the situation for you? How do you deal with all of this? How has your mental health, because it seems to me a little bit overwhelming?Guest- Michelle Wu (12:10):Yeah. Well first, thank you for asking, I think it’s sometimes when we’re trying to do so much, I’m always trying to remind activists, advocates, those who are toiling away for social justice, it is exhausting and self-care is as important a part of what we need to be thinking about as the policy battle and trying to provide relief wherever we can. Early on in the pandemic I had tried to, through my own thinking about this also provide, if possible, a platform to being transparent and engaging others in this as well. So we had hosted a series of live streams on all different parts of the pandemic first, what is COVID? In one of the earliest sit-downs with an epidemiologist in the area, and probably did a couple sessions specifically related to mental health to budgeting your time in this onslaught of no boundaries between work and home and everything else. And raising children in this environment too.Guest- Michelle Wu (13:13):So the learning that I do, I try to make as public as possible. And then of course, when it comes to my own family time and schedule, a lot of that is just built in over time. I need space to be a way sometimes with my kids and my husband, we went to the Apple Orchards a couple of weekends ago, and we find time to have my sisters come over and make sure that we’re taking care of our mom in a way that provides her a certain level of stability. It’s a lot to balance, but I will be the first to say, it’s not easy and it’s an ongoing effort.Host- Jay Ruderman (13:49):I’m sure it’s not. And thank you for what you do, not only for the community, but also for your family. I want to say Michelle, you were the first Asian-American woman to serve on the Boston City Council and the first woman of color to serve as the President of the City Council. And I want to talk a little bit about diversity and why diversity is important in American politics.Guest- Michelle Wu (14:13):I never thought when I was younger, that this could be a pathway that I should be on or involved with. And so much of that was simply not feeling connected in any way, not seeing people who look like me, being in these spaces. But what I’ve realized from being on the council is that it is both the importance of folks feeling like they are [inaudible 00:14:40] and reflected in our structures of decision-making and leadership, but also the type of leadership that then results.Guest- Michelle Wu (14:49):When I first ran for the city council, I launched my campaign in 2012, the election was in 2013 and I was trying to double the number of women serving on the council then. Out of 13 councilors, one was a woman. Pretty incredible one, her name was Ayanna Pressley, and she continues to be a leader for us. But when I joined Ayanna on the council, we went from one to two and in the year, since then, just four election cycles later, we have now in 2019 for the very first time elected the city’s first ever majority women, majority people of color, majority progressive council, and the entire atmosphere of politics and political involvement in the city has changed. People are feeling more connected to the issues, having an impact, see the council as a place where community can partner and push for accountability, push for action. And that’s something that’s really important.Guest- Michelle Wu (15:49):When I became the first sitting councilor to be pregnant on the council, my first year, I was pregnant with my son Blaise. We got paid parental leave done, right? We were the first out of anywhere in Massachusetts, the city council passed an ordinance for paid parental leave. First that ended up translating into some state agencies following. And so there was much more momentum because of it. We didn’t get it done because I was pregnant and I needed parental leave and therefore I was going to take this on. It was because as I was going out to my community meetings and doing my duties as a councilor and people saw this unusual thing of a pregnant councilor, I had the chance to hear and collect the stories of so many community members. What was it like for them when they had to go back to work? How hard was it and how unfair the policies are for that we don’t have paid parental leave in so many places. And it was really the flow and the flood of stories that I received about how urgent this issue was in our communities that gave me the ability to help prioritize this for the council and get it done.Host- Jay Ruderman (16:53):Right. I know you received some advice when you first ran, that you were too young, being Asian-American, having grown up in the city, that they were all things working against you, and yet you still move forward because you believed in what you were advocating for. I grew up in greater Boston and historically Boston has been an extremely segregated city with a long history of racism, to the point where there were neighborhoods that if you were not of that neighborhood, you did not walk into that neighborhood. And Boston has really, really changed in my view for the better, it’s much more inclusive, but how would you continue to bring these issues of diversity and inclusion to the forefront as potentially next mayor or on the council?Guest- Michelle Wu (17:39):We have to recognize just how persistent, just how deep and prevalent racial injustices are all across city, even today. I think sometimes there’s a tendency to say, “Well, Boston’s not as X, Y, Z as some other places.” Or, “We have been at the forefront of this or that.” And we want to celebrate the ways in which our city is progressing and making huge strides while also centering the continued lived experiences of black and brown residents in Boston who continue to be the stories behind the statistics and the numbers that I think we hear. That we know to this day, that median net worth of a white family in Boston is around $250,000 compared to $8 for a black family. We know that the life expectancy between Back Bay, a more affluent disproportionately white or neighborhood, life expectancy drops by 30 plus years when you go that one mile down the street to Roxbury, disproportionately, lower income neighborhood and a majority people of color, black and Latinx.Guest- Michelle Wu (18:54):We know that even in our transportation system, black bus riders spend 64 hours more per year on our buses compared to their white counterparts. Even though demographically, everybody is riding the bus in similar rates, except the buses running through communities of color are more often delayed, have longer routes, require more transfers. And to say that we are serious about the Black Lives Matter Movement and racial justice and economic justice means that we are directing the full force of our policy and decision-making to that end.Guest- Michelle Wu (19:32):And so I have put forward a couple of different proposals that are meant to really show how city government in very doable, immediate steps can make a huge dent on these issues. Rethinking our city contracting and how we spend our dollars, how currently we are in low single digits for the percentage of contracts that go to businesses owned by people of color in the city of Boston. When it comes to city spending where 660 plus million dollars a year. And as of 2018, it was less than 1% went to businesses owned by people of color, just about 3%, 4% during the emergency spending of the COVID pandemic.Guest- Michelle Wu (20:08):We need to push for a structural change that starts with the structures of city government, as part of my Green New Deal, proposal and plan. I put forward the commitment to do a justice audit of the city. How are each of our departments making their spending decisions, policy decisions, and public engagement decisions in a way that either is maybe unintentionally exacerbating gaps that we need to change. And how can we really redirect our efforts to closing those gaps? And then so much of it is the team, making sure that staff and leaders and the people who all will go into an administration together really represent and reflect the full inclusion of Boston and all of our communities.Host- Jay Ruderman (20:53):Right. I think what people don’t get sometimes is that they think of themselves and think of, “Oh, we’re doing okay. And I’m doing okay financially, and I’ll be all set.” But what they don’t think about is that when you live in a society that has deep inequalities, that is not a healthy society.Guest- Michelle Wu (21:09):That’s right.Host- Jay Ruderman (21:10):That is not a society that anyone rich or poor is going to be happy with in the future.Guest- Michelle Wu (21:16):That’s right.Host- Jay Ruderman (21:18):I’ve had the privilege to visit other countries around the world. Some of them who have deep racial inequalities and they’re not comfortable for anyone. And I think if we let Boston or Massachusetts or America get to that point, it’s not going to be a healthy society for anyone and no one’s going to feel comfortable. So I think the idea of taking populations that are really been disenfranchised and helping to level out the playing field is smart for everyone, that’s my [crosstalk 00:21:48].Guest- Michelle Wu (21:48):Absolutely. And I hope that that’s one of the lessons coming out of the pandemic too, that in this once in a generation moment, everybody sees just how vulnerable and fragile the status quo had been, just how disproportionate the outcomes are and how so much of our burdens sit squarely on the shoulders of the very same residents who have borne the public health burden of this crisis. The economic burden of this crisis continue to bear mental health burden disproportionately in this crisis.Guest- Michelle Wu (22:19):And if we take away from this COVID-19 situation, two things, I hope it is at one how interconnected we all are, that every one of us, our health and safety depends on the health and safety of workers who turns out, were essential all along who we had not been supporting and didn’t have access to paid sick time and other basic necessities. And then secondly, when we do decide to confront a serious crisis, we can mobilize tremendous resources and change systems. We’ve seen so much of that happen during this pandemic.Host- Jay Ruderman (22:58):Right. I had a conversation with Peter Slavin and who is the President of Mass General Hospital and someone I know well, and I asked him about COVID at Mass General right now. And he said, “Listen, a lot of the patients are Hispanic and African-American.” And I said, “Why is that?” And he said, “They’re living in communities that are much more crowded. A lot of them are forced to go to work, even when they’re sick in order to earn a paycheck. And that’s what we’re seeing the outcome is that more of these people in these communities have COVID. And also the health coverage that they had is not the same as a more affluent white community.” So we just don’t want to become that country. And I think to be complacent at this point in time is not the patriotic way to go. Again, that’s my two cents, but I know that you feel passionately about these issues.Guest- Michelle Wu (23:49):Yeah. And I would say the flip side is also that there’s more at stake than just avoiding harms and avoiding the negative impacts of what will happen. In fact, as you’re saying, when we move to a society where everybody is lifted up and everybody has opportunity, that is the best future for all of our kids as well. And so I think about one other way that communities of color in particular have been impacted during COVID and it’s the exposure and everything you just mentioned, as well as the climate impacts that, communities who have been exposed to more air pollution to begin with, more likely black and brown communities who had been living near environmental hazards like highways or waste treatment plants, all of that. It turns out that if you are exposed to COVID, it’s more likely a more serious case as well. And so there it’s layer upon layer of the same steps we need to take to undo these harms. In fact are the same steps we need to take to eliminate poverty, and that will lead to the brightest future for everyone.Host- Jay Ruderman (24:55):Right. So let me ask you a question about racial inequality. We’re going through a very trying time in America, where we saw very stark issues of racial inequality with police brutality and the murder of George Floyd and others. How is Boston doing in terms of racial inequality and how they’re dealing with it?Guest- Michelle Wu (25:17):We’re often hearing that Boston is not X, Y, Z other city because we have not had a particular incident that has sort of rallied everyone around a single case of injustice. We hear often that Boston is the home of community policing as well. And it’s important to mark that stake in the ground, that this is a city that first and has been held up as a national model for emphasizing building trust with communities rather than a draconian arrest and punishment model. However, the reality on the ground is still that when you look at the data, when you look at which people are stopped from what backgrounds, more than 70% of the stop and frisk interactions in Boston are black and brown residents, right? A way disproportionate number compared to the size of the population.Guest- Michelle Wu (26:13):I was just appearing on a different podcast yesterday and in the community. And after the recording, the host wanting to show me a different part of the facility and that several bullets had come through the window and were so large, and they were still damaged to that building that was not covered because although it wasn’t captured in the statistics because no one was hit, the damage, the harm, the mental health stress was still sitting very much on that family who is thinking about that now constantly.Guest- Michelle Wu (26:46):And we still have far too many residents in Boston, in black and brown communities who are living with the daily feeling of exposure to gun violence, of food insecurity, of needing to fight for access to quality schools. And we are a city that has the resources to address all of these issues, we just have to recognize the ways in which everything is interconnected, cannot keep siloing off this community versus that one, this issue versus that, and act with the bold urgency that matches the need out in our communities.Host- Jay Ruderman (27:23):Right. Well, you seem to have the passion and the urgency to really address these issues. What do you think has been the greatest accomplishment that you’ve had serving in the Boston City Council?Guest- Michelle Wu (27:35):I hope that I can objectively say we’ve really transformed how people think about city government. That when I ran the first time again, to just double the number of women from one to two, that most of the questions I got on that campaign trail, the very first election were to kind of place me within certain tribes and how people thought about Boston politics and which tribe do you belong to? Where did you grow up? Where does your mom live? What school did you go to? Where does your partner do? This last election cycle, I’m not sure people could have named what neighborhood any of the candidates lived in because the questions were about what issues you are going to champion. What communities are you going to bring to the table? What specific steps are you going to take to bring about change? And a lot of that has been in showing that the city council can make a difference in passing ordinance, after ordinance, piece of legislation, after a piece of legislation to really make an impact, bringing together coalitions, and then showing them that at the city level, you can get things done quickly.Guest- Michelle Wu (28:42):And I’m really proud of changing the conversation in so many ways, for example, on public transportation, I took a little heat when I first took a position about a year and a half ago that we should no longer be haggling every few years, about how much the fare increase would be on the MPTA our public transit agency. Instead, we should set a goal of fair, free public transportation, and then take steps in accordance with that, that public transportation is a public good, and we should treat it and fund it the same way we think about education or our parks or libraries that everyone benefits when everyone has access.Guest- Michelle Wu (29:24):And at first that seems high in the sky. And I got a lot of criticism about how this would be feasible. How can we pay for any of that? And just a year after that, some cities in Massachusetts had already started moving in the direction, implementing it because of the conversation that Boston was having. We’ve changed how we think about the way that we offer and provide access and how fundamental that issue is to everyone, in all manner of accessibility. And so that’s the difference that leaders can make when really center, the lived experiences of people who are most affected and think about what we should be aiming for and not just what is immediately in line with what we’ve done in the past.Host- Jay Ruderman (30:11):Right. And you still think the economics are there, that it can work?Guest- Michelle Wu (30:13):We have to, in this moment rethink the financing of our transit systems overall, right now, the ridership levels are down so much, many companies still working from home. Ridership is down so far that we are not able to fund even basic maintenance or service relying just on riders. And so there’s been some talk about whether the T will have to cut service at a time like this. That means cutting the supports for essential workers, right? If you look at which bus lines have not seen that dip in ridership, which train lines have not. It’s the blue line that runs from East Boston, heavily immigrant community, essential workers working in our hospitals and our food sector. It is communities of color who rely on the bus. We are now having larger conversations about how we fund system as a whole. And so I was proud to partner with Ayanna Pressley as she incented her Marquis before the federal bill called The Freedom to Move Act, which would generate $5 billion annually when it comes to how to fund fair, free transportation for local transit agencies and expand service with an equity lens.Host- Jay Ruderman (31:22):Right. Let me ask you, your platform, which is very detailed and has a lot of issues that you’d like to tackle. How does it speak to you personally? How does it reflect who you are as a candidate?Guest- Michelle Wu (31:36):I’m only in this, because I know what it means when government works and when it doesn’t work and how big the gaps are, especially when you need the most help for certain communities. Thinking about my mom’s experience and raising my sisters and what it means now to be in this middle generation of taking care of my mom still has her up and down days. And my voice, this is a city with so much potential. We have financial resources, we have activism, we have the smartest people and the best ideas in the world from folks who are just digging in and doing it in every community. We really just need to connect those resources with the real experiences and the struggles, the dreams of residents in our neighborhoods today.Guest- Michelle Wu (32:27):And so I live that every day and always am driven by not what we need inside city government and what is feasible within the matrix of our current city hall decision-making process. But what is it like for people outside city hall, who might not ever have the time to come to city hall because they’re working multiple jobs, caring for their kids, trying to take care of loved ones. And how do we make sure that we are going out to those families and getting them the supports, the services and the ecosystem of community building that will allow them to do everything that they need to do.Host- Jay Ruderman (33:07):Right. Well, it sounds like you’ve thought long and hard about why you’re doing this and you’re serious about it. Without getting political, we’re two weeks before the election, what do you think is the most important issue facing our country at this time?Guest- Michelle Wu (33:23):Trust. I think we are a country with deep divides right now, deep disparities. So many issues feel like we’re at a breaking point, whether it’s a crisis of our democracy or localizing cities, a housing crisis, a climate crisis, a economic crisis to get through this pandemic. And we’ve gotten further and further away from people feeling like government is a place that they can reach out to, to get involved and to make a difference. It’s not all because of missteps and harms that government has perpetuated. Although for a long time, now, many of our policies have begun to strip away supports and make it harder for working families to get by.Guest- Michelle Wu (34:18):But in general, we are lonelier as human beings, in this generation, we have on average, fewer close friends and confidence than two generations ago, we spend less time with our neighbors. We’re less likely to know our neighbors names, even who live on either side of us. And so, so much of what I relished about the local level of government is that because we’re so close to people, we have the most potential to earn back that trust, to foster that trust in communities and to build community in a way that roots people in a support network all around them.Guest- Michelle Wu (35:00):So I had said at least locally, if there were one thing that we could do to save our democracy, I think Boston should find a way to pay for, organize a block party on every single block in our city. And give people a chance to connect with folks around them who might think differently, believe differently, subscribed to a different set of political partisan beliefs and ideologies. And yet you share an important stake in your community together, we’ve gotten further and further away from having that kind of trust, which is essential to the trust that we can then make changes and improve our communities together.Host- Jay Ruderman (35:42):And Mayor Menino was particularly good at that, and having those personal gatherings. And I think it was part of his appeal for a long time to the people of Boston. Michelle, I know you’re super busy, so I just want to end and say, is there something during this time of COVID and an election and everything that’s going on, is there something that you do that you just enjoy for yourself?Guest- Michelle Wu (36:04):Let’s see. I think it varies by season for me. And so much of it has to do with my kids and making sure that we’re giving them the joy and the right to have a childhood and in such really crazy times. So the little joys of reading to them a little bit every day, or playing and drawing with, just the funny bunny things that come out of that. The other day we were reading Boxcar Children together. And there’s not that many pictures in the book, but there’s pictures here and there. And it was talking about apart where the children were going out and doing something. And my three-year-old then, he got a very furrow brown, he was very pointed an accusatory finger at the picture and said, “Why aren’t they wearing masks when they’re outside?” And so it’s a very different life that these kids are living.Guest- Michelle Wu (36:56):I love being out in nature as well. And so whenever we can combine the two, whether it’s apple picking or hiking or picking a different part and sport outside, that’s my time to feel centered in the larger world, and to feel small in this beautiful, amazing planet and entity that we have. And to know that we can all do our part in trying to support the entire ecosystem of everyone having a shot and everyone having opportunity.Host- Jay Ruderman (37:28):Right. That’s beautiful. And one piece of advice as a father of teenagers, avoid giving them cell phones, as long as you can.Guest- Michelle Wu (37:36):It’s so hard. They’re doing remote learning now. So now they’d know all the passwords to access all the laptops, constantly confiscating all of those.Host- Jay Ruderman (37:45):Well, it’s been such a pleasure speaking to Michelle. I wish you a lot of luck. I know you have a lot on your plate right now, but I really enjoyed speaking to you.Guest- Michelle Wu (37:54):Thank you so much Jay, for all that you do. And it’s just been such a joy to talk with you and looking forward to partnering on many things ahead.Host- Jay Ruderman (38:02):Thank you. Thank you. Have a great day.Guest- Michelle Wu (38:05):You too.Host- Jay Ruderman (38:05):ByeGuest- Michelle Wu (38:06):Bye everyone.Speaker 2 (38:08):All Inclusive is a production of the Ruderman Family Foundation. Our key mission is the full inclusion of people with disabilities in all aspects of society. You can find All Inclusive on Apple podcast, Google Play Spotify and Stitcher. To view the show notes, transcripts, or to learn more, go to rudermanfoundation.org/allinclusive. Have an idea for a podcast? Be sure to tweet @jayruderman.

00:01 Jay Ruderman: When she was only nine years old, Shalom Blac became a burn victim, leaving her face permanently scarred. Today, she’s a world famous beauty vlogger with nearly 1.5 million subscribers on YouTube.00:16 Speaker 2: All Inclusive, a podcast on inclusion, innovation, and social justice, with Jay Ruderman.00:23 JR: Hi. I’m Jay Ruderman, and this is All Inclusive. On today’s show, Shalom Blac will tell us the amazing story of how she turned a childhood tragedy into a career that has inspired so many. Shalom, welcome to All Inclusive.00:38 Shalom Blac: Hi. How are you guys?00:40 JR: So, tell me about your life as you remember it as a child in Nigeria before the accident happened.00:48 SB: Honestly, I would say I was probably a happy kid. I didn’t grow up with a family that was rich or anything like that, but I just remember just being happy, going to my mom’s store, helping her after school. And yeah, I think I was a good child. I don’t wanna say that, but I think I was a okay child. I wasn’t that bad, but yeah.01:10 JR: At nine years old, your parents owned a restaurant and they served snacks to the students nearby by frying snacks in hot oil. You and your sister were sleeping under a table when this vat of hot oil dropped on the floor and severely burned you and your sister.01:31 SB: Yeah.01:31 JR: Tell me how your family reacted. Was there tremendous amount of guilt on the behalf of your parents?01:37 SB: Yeah, definitely. I think my parents had a lot of guilt, especially my mom, being that it was her store and that’s where she worked and was selling stuff. There was rumors going around basically saying that she fried up her kids just to make money, so I can’t imagine how she felt. But I remember just seeing pictures of her at the hospital with us. I was unconscious so not to know exactly what was going on, but I saw pictures on how much she literally got so skinny because she was depressed. My dad, on the other side, I think his guilt that he had was the fact that he was in prison. So yeah, I think that change of the whole family dynamic ’cause we were treated different, our parents have to be cautious and be a little bit overprotective just so that we don’t get picked on at. And also, I felt like maybe a little bit overprotective where it came to the point where I felt like my dad was trying to hide my scars more than I was trying to hide it, which made me even more insecure about it ’cause I’m like, “Oh, woah, he’s telling me that I have to cover up all the time.” So even moving to the States and stuff, I started having to cover up, I didn’t want anybody to see it.03:02 JR: Tell me about going to the US. You had an aunt that really, really worked hard to get you guys visas to come and get the proper medical treatment. Where did you end up in the UnitedStates?03:15 SB: We ended up in Maryland. That’s where she basically raised her kids.03:20 JR: So if my math is correct, you were in middle school around 2009. Tell me about the bullying. Can you just describe what that was like and what type of names people were calling you?03:33 SB: Yeah. So I was called [chuckle] all the names. So Scarface was one of them, or Two-Face, The Burnt B, the B word, and so many other names, or just people just being disgusted, saying, “Eww,” they do not wanna touch the same thing that I’ve touched. Or if I’d say something in class, people would just turn around and look at me in a disgusting way, so I just learned to not speak at all. I never raised my hand to answer any question ’cause I was trying to avoid getting attention from any of my classmates, so I was just cooped up. I think I didn’t really speak to my family about the whole issue. I would just go home and be sad. And then of course, I started skipping school as much as I can just so I don’t have to deal with those people at school.04:26 JR: And you talked about being suicidal. When did that come on? Was that when you were in middle school that you felt suicidal, or was it later in high school?04:37 SB: I think it was throughout. I’ve never harmed myself, but the thought was there. There were moments where I will go into the bathroom with a knife and basically look in the mirror and be like, “Maybe I should just end it up right here, right now.” So the thoughts were there. I never actually went through with it. I think mostly I was afraid that what if I don’t die, I’m gonna be in the hospital and my parents are gonna be well disappointed at me for trying to do such things. So, that is definitely…05:17 JR: But you were able to pull yourself out of that period?05:20 SB: Yeah. I remember my mom always just telling me, “You have a purpose.” And I wanted to see what that purpose is ’cause I didn’t understand why I will have to go through the things I’ve been through and for that to be considered a purpose. So I know we don’t really talk about religion, and so I honestly feel like it’s God that had pulled me out of the thought. And I think I sometimes I… I wouldn’t say I have suicidal thought, but there will be moment where you’re just like, “Okay, what is the purpose of life?” And you just sort of feel worthless. So when those moments come, I’m like, “Okay, girl, you need to snap out of it.” And I do try to be around people that do make me feel good, like my friends that have accepted me for who I am. I feel like it kinda helped me a lot.06:13 JR: Well, I think whether we talk about formalized religion or spirituality, I think there’s something that’s coursing through humankind, and sometimes we don’t know our purpose, and sometimes it takes a while to find it, and I think you have to have that faith that it’s gonna come about. I think for you, from what I understand, it came about through make-up, you were in the hospital and you were taught how to use make-up, and that was really a transformative time in your life. Can you talk a little bit about that?06:47 SB: Yeah, so I think my first time being introduced to make-up was after my surgery at the Shriners, and they decided to do something special for me by creating a wig, and also gifted me make-up and showed me how to use some of it. It was a bit of a struggle learning how to actually do it when I got back home, and then of course coming across YouTube videos, tutorials and stuff, Istarted learning and picking from there. So that’s kind of how it came about. And at that time, I say many times when I was doing it, I was more so focused on covering my scars than sort of embracing them and showing people like, “Okay, yes, I do have the scars, but I enjoy doing make-up,” but it was more so to cover and show myself.07:34 JR: So you did not intend to become a YouTuber, it sort of just happened. You began to get more and more attention and realized that this was a path for you. When did you first realize that you had gone viral? What was that experience like?07:51 SB: I think the first time I realized I went viral was when I had to go on my settings on my phone and turn off my notification because I was getting so much notification at once, and this was around the time that I did The Power of Makeup, whereby you basically do half of your face and then half without make-up. And so people saw that video, but my initial thought on getting on YouTube was to just put make-up, but I also just thought it was cool watching other people put make-up. I didn’t realize that I was trying to be a YouTuber. I didn’t know that was what it was called, but I thought, “Oh wow, it’s so cool seeing all these people wearing make-up,” but I also didn’t see anybody that looks like me, so I’m watching girls that had beautiful skin, flawless skin, but I was like, “Well, I don’t see anyone that looks like me,” so I’m like, “Well, let me be the person putting on make-up, and hopefully I get better at doing my makeup, whereby other burn survivors can learn from me,” because it’s definitely hard and different putting make-up on a regular skin versus scarred skin.09:01 JR: So you end all your videos with the phrase, “You’re your own kind of beautiful.” Do you wanna talk a little bit about where that comes from or why that resonates with you so strongly?09:13 SB: That’s actually funny. So I thought I was the one that started saying, “Be your own kind of beautiful,” but then I went on Google to actually check and I found out that it was like a Marilyn Monroe quote. I was like, “Oh, wow, I didn’t know that.” But I think I started that because, again, I felt so different from any other beauty content creators on the platform. So for me, I think my way of celebrating the difference and finding my own beauty and being happy within myself, so be your own kind of beautiful, define what it is to you and be that.[music]09:49 S2: You’re listening to All Inclusive with Jay Ruderman. You can learn more, view the show notes and transcripts at rudermanfoundation.org/all-inclusive.10:01 JR: Please remember to subscribe, rate and review us wherever you are listening.10:08 JR: So you’re a role model for many people who are burn victims and who have scars and learn from your videos about how to apply make-up. I’ve even seen a few videos where you have applied make-up to other burn victims. How does that feel? Is it a heavy burden to say like, “Okay, I’m one person that was the victim of a terrible accident, but now I have this oversized role where I’m sort of an icon for so many people?” Does it ever feel too much to you?10:36 SB: I wouldn’t call it a burden. I do feel like there are times that people kind of expect you to constantly be positive, but I think as humans, we don’t always feel good 24/7. I was just talking to one of my burn survivor friend, and she was like, “Yeah, I want to be posting and stuff, but I feellike posting on social media, people expect me to be constantly motivational and positive, but that’s not how I feel every single day.” And I’m like yeah, I could definitely relate to that. But I feel like I found a way to balance where I’m like, okay, if I’m not feeling good, I’m either just offline and not forcing myself to seem like, “Oh, I’m the most positive person, I’m always happy about life, ’cause it’s not always like that.” So I wouldn’t call it a burden, but there’s that pressure of feeling the need to be constantly in a good mood.11:37 JR: So how was it for you to go out in public without your make-up, without a wig? I know you talked about, first it was terrifying to go across the street to 7-11, but then you went to Walmart, and then you posted videos of yourself without a wig which you didn’t intend to become viral. Where did that courage come from, for all of a sudden to say, “Okay, I’m taking off the make-up, I’m taking off the wig, and I’m showing myself who I am, and I’m proud of that?”12:08 SB: I think I just sort of believe in taking chances in life. I read this thing, I remember coming across a saying, “You lose 100% of the chances you do not take.” So that was like my push, I’m like, “Well, let me do this. What is the worst that can happen? If I can go one step forward, I could definitely go another 10 steps forward.” So I was like, “Let me just take this chance and go out to Walmart.” And I feel like that was sort of like the starting for me. I think also the thing that pushed me to constantly keep going was the overwhelming respond that I’ve received from other people coming to me, people that I thought were perfect coming to me and basically saying, “Wow you inspired me. You inspired me to go out without long pants today.” So I was like, “Okay, maybe I should really start challenging myself more and more.” But it’s not something that happened overnight, it’s definitely like sometimes and more challenges that I just personally wanted to conquer myself.13:23 JR: And do you still receive bullying or different types of looks? And if you do how you deal with that?13:30 SB: I think I do definitely still get the look in person, but I think I just don’t pay attention to it, or if you stare at me, I would just look back at you until one of us get tired of staring. But online bullying, I feel like most of the times I do ignore it. There are times where, of course, you would feel some type of way. I would be lying if I say I never felt some type of way about what somebody has said to me ever before, people would say, “Oh, you’re being deceitful by putting on make up, if you were with a guy and he wakes up the next morning and see your face he is going to be scared and probably wouldn’t wanna see you.” Now, I’m like this absolutely, not true, because it’s not true. But yeah.14:17 JR: You’ve talked very openly about your love life and the challenges, is it much more difficult to date and to get to know people when you’re a public figure?14:28 SB: Yeah, I do think so, because you just never know the reason why somebody is interested in you, I don’t know if it’s something that we just have in the back of our mind, if somebody’s just trying to use us for the fame. So I feel like it’s difficult, which sometimes it has happened before, where people will come into your life and act like they really, truly care about you, and then you find out that it was all front. So it’s been a bit difficult and I just sort of kinda learned to not speak on what I do because it’s easy to just put it up on YouTube, like search up the name and see, “Oh, this person has this many numbers, they must be making this much, or maybe they can make me a known person,” so I just like… If somebody does come into my life, I kinda don’t mention thatYouTube world to them. And, yeah.15:25 JR: What would be your advice for someone that says, “I wanna become a YouTube star?”15:30 SB: Just sign up, ’cause I feel like people come before they go ahead and sign up for the YouTube, “How do I do it?” Sign up, study other people, especially people that you like, and also figure out what your niche is, because there’s so many different themes that goes on in YouTube, you have the beauty community, you have the gamers, you have the commentary people, so it’s like there’s so much stuff that you can do. Find exactly what you like do, make sure that that’s what you want to do, so it doesn’t feel like a job. And also make sure when you’re coming on this platform as a beginner, do not focus on the numbers and the money because you might not be getting that at that time and that might discourage you, so just do it because you love it and be consistent. That’s definitely important. I’m not as consistent anymore, but starting off you definitely want to be consistent because YouTube just closed channels that aren’t constantly posting.16:31 JR: Is this your full-time job, at this point in time?16:35 SB: Yeah, this is the full-time job, and hopefully one day I can have my own brand. But, yeah.16:41 JR: All right, so I was gonna ask you about that. Are you looking to release your own line of product?16:47 SB: I would love that. I’ve been thinking about it for years now, but I think I’m just sort of like taking my time, I don’t wanna rush and just put anything out. But, yes. That is the plan for your future.17:00 JR: And what about acting? Are you approached by any studios, are you asked to audition based on your celebrity, based on your talents of being very comfortable speaking in front of the camera.17:14 SB: I personally want to get into acting, and I’ve been saying it for a while now, but I told myself I need to actually go and take some classes, I don’t think I have acting skills at all, but I did audition for one thing, which was like the Google commercial, so that was really fun to go ahead and do my first audition and I got it.17:36 JR: Congratulations.17:37 SB: Thank you.17:38 JR: So you’ve also been very outspoken in terms of racial injustice and supporting black-owned companies, whether they be makeup companies or restaurants or other companies, and speaking out about the racial injustice in this country, and we’ve gone through a period of time right now where it’s really hit all of America. So do you wanna talk a little bit about where you are right now in terms of racial injustice and how you would address it?18:11 SB: I think I would say the way that I pretty much address it again, is by showcasing, those black-owned businesses, because I have the platform, and that’s how I can use my voice. We areliving in the world where we are definitely treated slightly different than the rest of the world, and I think for us to get to a better place is by coming together and speaking out and also putting in the action. And so I feel like a lot of the social content creators here, it’s honestly by highlighting the businesses and also when we do see something that is not right, we put it out there, social media, it’s a very, very strong place to really start a conversation. Yeah, I do feel like it’s very important. I know it’s like, I’m a make-up girl, and I feel like people do expect… Some people would expect, okay, well, I’m not a politician and I don’t know much. But whatever it is that I can push forward, I would definitely do, ’cause I’m not all just make up, I’m more than that. Humanity is everything.19:25 JR: Well, I think that even though you say, I’m not a politician, you are a leader and you’re a very strong person, you’re not just a beautiful face dealing with make-up, but you have very strong views, you’re not afraid to hide from them, and I think that the public has a innate aversion to injustice, and when you see injustice, you have the ability through your platform to really say something very important and influence people who are following it, so I give you a lot of credit for doing that because there are many people in your position who probably would just completely stay away from that.20:10 SB: Thank you.20:12 JR: Shalom, it’s been such a pleasure speaking to you, I’m really impressed by what you’ve built, and not only that, by your personality and how strong you are, and I believe that you’re gonna be a significant figure in our society. So thank you so much for joining us on All Inclusive Today. I really enjoyed having you as a guest.20:38 SB: Thank you so much for having me. I had fun. [chuckle][music]20:42 S2: All Inclusive is a production of The Ruderman Family Foundation. Our key mission is the full inclusion of people with disabilities in all aspects of society. You can find All Inclusive on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Spotify and Stitcher. To view the show notes, transcripts or to learn more, go to rudermanfoundation.org/all-inclusive. Have an idea for a podcast? Be sure to tweet @jayruderman

0:00:00 Jay Ruderman: Nothing prompts a response in a household like talking about politics. Many people have polarizing views and it is the one sure topic to be covered by the news every day of the year.[music]0:00:18 S?: All Inclusive, a podcast on inclusion, innovation and social justice with Jay Ruderman.0:00:29 JR: Hi, I’m Jay Ruderman, and thank you for joining me for the Season 3 Finale of All Inclusive. If you haven’t already please be sure to go back and check out the rest of Season 3. We have some pretty amazing guests with really amazing stories and insight. On today’s show, we have one of the most foremost political scientists in our country, Dr. Norman Ornstein. Dr. Ornstein is a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, as well as a contributing editor and columnist for The National Journal and the Atlantic. There’s also a BBC News election analyst and is the chairman of the Campaign Legal Center.0:00:58 JR: Welcome, Dr. Ornstein and thank you for being with us on All Inclusive. I just saw something, I’ve known you for a while, but a little known fact for me, which I found out was that you actually graduated high school at 14 and college at 18, which is quite impressive, so kudos for that. And I just think that you’re probably very well attuned to what you’re observing, and thank you for really joining us today and lending your expertise on our nation’s political system and its mental health.0:01:41 Norman Ornstein: Sure.0:01:42 JR: So let me ask you, when you were growing up, did you always like politics even at a young age, and did you ever think that your career would take you into the political sphere?0:01:55 NO: So as a young person, I really did have an interest in politics because my grandfather, who had emigrated from Russia, moved to Northern Minnesota, a very small town, and down to Minneapolis where he became a major labor leader and was instrumental as part of the very small kitchen cabinet that got Hubert Humphrey to run for Mayor of Minneapolis and got his career underway. And my mother’s family was very much engaged in what was called DFL politics, the party in Minnesota was the Democratic Farmer Labor Party. The youngest son, my grandfather’s youngest son, my uncle, served in the state legislature, was a nominee for Attorney General in the state, his son is now a state Senator in Minnesota. And I got to know Hubert Humphrey a little bit as a young person, and I got to know many of the other figures in Minnesota politics, so I was interested in politics.0:03:00 NO: I didn’t have any real sense that I would end up with a career that kind of intersected with the political world until I was in college, and I didn’t know what I wanted to do. I was, as you said, a very young person. I was living at home in Minneapolis and commuting to the University of Minnesota. But I had a couple of professors who really shaped my career, one who in the end got me to the University of Michigan to get my PhD, the other who had worked in Congress for a year as a congressional fellow of the American Political Science Association, and brought all of those experiences to the classroom. And I decided to go to graduate school in political science and decided that I was going to do that too and be a congressional fellow, and I did, I managed to get that honor in 1969 and 1970, came to Washington, worked on the Hill, immersed myself in the politics of Congress, wrote my PhD dissertation on Congress and staff, and then ultimately after teaching in Italy for a year and finishing my dissertation, I came back to Washington to teach and began to write more widely in newspapers, to do some television, but also to write about politics and interact with many of the people here. So that really did establish my career and some of it clearly got started when I was very young.0:04:31 JR: So you’ve been in Washington or in the political scene for 40-plus years.0:04:38 NO: Yeah, 50.0:04:41 JR: Fifty.0:04:43 NO: But who’s counting? Yeah.0:04:44 JR: But you’ve met so many people in the political sphere, and I’m just wondering if there’s anyone in particular that has stood out as someone that you had a personal connection with, someone that you felt that you could really sit down and have an honest conversation with, or there may be more than one person.0:05:03 NO: I was thinking just the other day that I’ve just had this enormous great fortune of having a series of incredible mentors, people that I did spend a fair amount of time with and who I’ve admired greatly, and they cut across all kinds of party lines. One was Elliot Richardson, a very famous man, a Republican. I’ve never known anybody with the integrity that Elliot Richardson had. And he, of course, was the Attorney General when we saw the famous Saturday night massacre where Richard Nixon in the midst of the Watergate scandal wanted to fire the special counsel who was investigating, Archibald Cox, ordered the Attorney General to do it and Richardson refused and resigned as his Deputy Attorney General.0:06:01 NO: And I became friends with him, and he really was a mentor to me after he left government service. I served with him on a commission that was chaired by another one of my mentors who I was close to until he died very recently, Paul Volcker, and used to spend a great deal of time with him talking about public service. I am still on the board of his venture, the Volker Alliance. Another was the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan, who I got to know when he was a political scientist and then became close to as a Senator. Another was Alan Simpson, a wonderful Republican Senator from Wyoming, who I later enlisted to co-chair a commission I had set up in the aftermath of 9-11, the Continuity of Government Commission, and he’s still going strong at 89.0:07:00 NO: So all of those, Walter Mondale, a mentor from, of course, my great state of Minnesota. Don Fraser, who was the Congressman from Minnesota who I worked for when I initially went there. Donna Shalala, a dear friend from political science, tennis partner for all eight years when she was Secretary of Health and Human Services, and now as she’s come back, the capstone of her career as a member of Congress. So a very large number, and I could actually go on and on, and all of them were just extremely nice and warm and took me under their wing and taught me an awful lot. And it’s one of those things too, Jay, where when you deal with people who are sort of towering figures, really fit the definition of statesman, who always put country first, who had enormous accomplishments in what they did, and it makes it more painful now to see how difficult it is to find people who meet that set of categories and who can transcend the differences that we have in a world that’s really been taken over by a kind of tribalism.0:08:30 JR: So I wanted to get into that with you a little bit more. The names that you’re mentioning are all people, I think because I’m a certain age that I knew of, follow, they were key figures in the national political scene. I even had the opportunity in high school to be a Congressional page in the early ’80s and served under the Speaker of the House, Tip O’Neill, who was a Democrat, but he used to commute back to Massachusetts with Silvio Conte, who was a Republican. And the atmosphere in the House, I had the opportunity to be on the House floor late at night, and the camaraderie between Republicans and Democrats, even though it was in the time of Reagan, which was a partisan time, people could actually have friendships and work together. It seems like that’s no longer the case, and how did we develop into a time where it seems like the parties don’t even speak to each other anymore, and it’s very difficult to even get them in the room, never mind having the camaraderie that allows bipartisan legislation to emerge.0:10:00 NO: We’re certainly at a very low point now. Now, there is some of it. In the Senate, you’ll find, mostly on issues that don’t get into the bigger ones, where you still have some ability to work across party lines, and that includes some work in areas that you and I are both very much engaged in. We saw, for example, with a couple of bills that were co-sponsored by the Democratic Senator from Michigan, Debbie Stabenow, and the Republican Senator from Missouri, Roy Blunt, one that made an effort, for example, to get around this just really terrible quirk in the law that requires that community health centers taking care of those with mental illness have to have less than 16 beds if they’re going to get any Medicaid funding, which has dramatically restricted the opportunities for care and the number beds that exist.0:11:07 NO: We see it with a bill in the Senate by Republican Rob Portman and Democrat Dick Durbin to try and enable a remote Congress at the time of the pandemic. But the fact is, on most issues across most lines, we don’t have camaraderie anymore, camaraderie, we don’t have trust anymore. The norms have been scattered. This goes back long before Donald Trump. It’s something I’ve devoted a fair amount of my career and research to, with my long-time friend and colleague, going back to the University of Michigan, Tom Mann, we wrote a book in 2006 about Congress called The Broken Branch, where we really began to see this unraveling. And there, we put some blame on both parties, and a lot of it on Newt Gingrich from the time he entered Congress, really trying to tribalize the process so he could find a way to get the Republican majority.0:12:08 NO: And then when we wrote again, a book in 2012 called, It’s Even Worse Than It Looks, that one, we looked early at the Republicans, because it had really become kind of asymmetric in the way in which our polarization was working and the tribalism was taking place, and amplified by outside forces like talk radio and cable news, and it’s gotten worse since, and it’s been dramatically amplified under Trump, but again, exacerbated by so many forces outside. And what started as a kind of tribalism, and sometimes the way I define it, what we used to have was partisanship, which is baked into our democratic system, and you would look at people on the other side of the aisle as really good people, good Americans, trying to solve the problems we all know exist, but just with a different approach, and we could find ways to work together, finding some common ground, sometimes doing a little give and take across the lines, to now where it’s you look at people on the other side as the enemy, evil people trying to destroy our way of life.0:13:30 NO: And when you reach that mindset and have it metastasize down to the states and then to the public as a whole, and realize that our elections now are driven by what the political scientists call negative partisanship, we’re more moved by trying to keep out those evil people on the other side then necessarily by adherence to your own party, you can see a very pernicious dynamic. And it means that finding ways to work together to solve these big problems that we have becomes more and more difficult, and everything gets filtered through the desire to gain more traction for the next election. And if you work with people in power, this is a phenomenon that hits the minority party, and things go well, then people are going to reward the party in power, and so you have a huge incentive not to work with them, and that makes it worse.0:14:33 NO: And add to that what’s become a phenomenon that again goes back, I believe, to Gingrich, when he became the Speaker, one of the first things he did was to eliminate the Congressional Office of Technology Assessment, which was this terrific place that had a group of top scientists and engineers who would give Congress technical information and facts that they could use to make their decisions. But because a lot of those facts, whether it was in defense or the environment, didn’t fit what goals Gingrich and his party had, it was better to discredit the facts and get rid of the people who were providing them.0:15:18 NO: And of course, we’ve seen the same thing play out often with fossil fuel companies trying to discredit the scientists who told us about climate change, and now we’re in a world where dealing with a pandemic, we have a significant portion of the population that doesn’t believe the scientists or the experts, where we see our leading specialist in infectious disease, a national hero, Anthony Fauci, facing death threats and being told that he’s just slanting the data to hurt Trump, it makes it so much harder for the society to grapple with the problems or to behave appropriately. It’s a real crisis we have on our hands, and it’s not going away if and when Donald Trump is no longer president.0:16:06 JR: Right, so I think we’ve seen over the last few decades great developments in politics, first of all, television and the introductions of television into first the House and then the Senate, social media and politics playing out on social media and also money, Citizens United, essentially unlimited money in the political system. Have all of these contributed to a debasing of our national discussion?0:16:47 NO: No doubt. It’s interesting, I’ve just been in my social isolation. One of the things I’ve been doing is cleaning up my study at home and going through pictures, and I’ve got a bunch of pictures from the fifth anniversary of C-SPAN coming into the House of Representatives, where Brian Lamb, the creator of C-SPAN, asked me to moderate a set of programs commemorating that fifth anniversary. And so I’ve got these pictures with Robert Byrd and Newt Gingrich and Tom Foley and other figures from that era. And of course, television in the House and Senate was a really big deal. Byrd opposed it, knowing that it would have some unintended consequences. And it’s wonderful, it’s necessary that we be able to have transparency and shed light on what Congress is doing. And when you don’t have that, really bad things can follow.0:17:54 NO: Just as an aside, I’ve noticed that the now chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, a committee that has always prided itself on its bipartisanship, Jim Risch, scheduled a meeting without notifying the minority to try and confirm somebody, they had the international broadcasting side, the Voice of America and so on, who’s undue criminal investigation, and not only scheduled the hearing to try and jam through the nomination without notice, but also decided that it would not be televised the way other meetings that they have done recently, especially with COVID, have been, because he wants to hide the actions that they’re taking.0:18:45 NO: So it’s good to have, but you’re absolutely right, it can open up opportunities. The old, very old saw, you never want to watch laws or sausages being made, because politics is messy and can involve some give and take, some unseemly things or things that look on the surface to be bad, that can create even more division because of the rhetoric that’s used, and we’ve certainly seen plenty of that. And the other ways in which things have opened up have created their own issues. And the role of money, and especially in the post-Citizens United world, and it’s not just that decision, but the ones that followed that have created dark money possibilities, huge sums going through with nobody knowing where they’ve come from, channeled and laundered through multiple places. The theater that lawmakers have that when you raise money in the traditional fashion, which is with a limit of about $2700 or $2800 from individuals for an election, but then somebody can come in with two weeks left in the campaign where you don’t have the ability to counter it and pour in millions to slime you and all the negative campaigning that’s come from it.0:20:14 NO: And you’re going to have to protect yourself, and that means you have to go out and raise money, and often that means selling your soul to get that money or selling political favors, the degree to which a small number of elites, billionaires can dominate this process and to achieve their own goals, this is not a good thing. And when you realize that so much of it is used in an election process and hear all the decisions made by the Supreme Court under John Roberts, not just about money, blowing up the Voting Rights Act, for example, opening up opportunities for voter suppression, where campaigns are all about motivating your own base and suppressing the others. All of that means that the focus is on the negative and scaring people about what the other side will do. And once again, we’re back to all of the issues and difficulties of convincing Americans that we’re all Americans first and making decisions that are going to shape the lives of ourselves and our future generations, that meting a little pain now for a bigger gain later on, those things are harder to do now, and that’s a huge, huge problem.0:21:42 JR: So it seems to me that in the past, people who ran for president had to have some political experience, people were coming out of the Senate mainly, but the House governors, and now we’re seeing… I’ve been watching this series on Netflix called Trump: An American Dream, which essentially documents his rise as a celebrity and using celebrity, and one of the takeaway lines in one of the episodes I watched last night had Roger Stone being interviewed. Roger Stone, an associate of Trump’s who has since been convicted. But he made an interesting line, he said, “Listen, to run for president, you have to be known.” And people began to look at Trump because he was known. Are our politics changing from people who actually know how government operates to people who are celebrities and people know about them, and they may get into the system without a lot of background of how politics actually works? And maybe that’s what the electorate is looking for, in some ways, they’re so disenfranchised with the system for whatever reason that they may be looking for outsiders.0:23:23 NO: So we get into a kind of downward spiral that flows from all of this, and some of it gets back to televising, but also just a kind of cynical way in which politics gets covered. People who are not satisfied or who look at our political process and think, look what those politicians do, and clever people running for office run against politics and politicians, and say, I’m not like those other people, you get discredited the whole idea of compromise, of log rolling, of doing things for others, and that’s encouraged in so many other ways. And it makes it possible for people to jump up and say, elect me, I’ll run government like a business, I’m not going to do what those dirty politicians do.0:24:16 NO: And so we elect people who either don’t know what they’re doing or who are happy to run in a campaign where your goal is to shred the reputation of the other person and they’re going to do the same to you and you’re okay with that. Or who get into it because it’s an ideological crusade, and not because you’re there to solve problems, many of them requiring very difficult trade-offs. And it doesn’t go well, and instead of a public saying, oh my goodness, you know what, maybe we’re better off electing people who know what they’re doing in government, it’s not like you’re going to say, I need brain surgery, I don’t want one of those people who’s been to medical school, I want somebody who’s been, stayed overnight in a Holiday Inn, and you don’t end up with the outcomes that we want.0:25:14 NO: We’ve so discredited politics and politicians, and we’re seeing now, I think, the ultimate outcome of this. Now, this also goes back a long ways. I think the fantasy that if you could run government like a business, you wouldn’t waste tax payer dollars and it could work well and the shareholders would get what they want, ought to have been put to rest with Donald Trump. And I’ve sometimes joked, I suppose you could call it a joke, that we have run government like a business, but the business is Trump University, a business that’s now bankrupt because it basically built people, and government is not like a business, it’s not about a bottom line, it’s about solving problems, and sometimes solving those problems means you have to lay out a lot of money as an investment. Businesses now operate mostly by looking at the share price and what happens in the quarter.0:26:13 NO: Government shouldn’t be looking at it that way, it should be looking at benefiting society as a whole, and sometimes that means taking money from one group, so you can give it to another, because we’re all in the same boat. And it means looking at ways in which you solve problems and not in black and white terms, because so many of them involve shades of gray, and involve values that are not just maximizing profits, that include things like opportunity and equality and fairness, that are not at the top of the list of corporations, for example.0:26:55 NO: So we’ve strayed from, I think, where we ought to be. We ought to be embracing politics and a noble kind of politics, which means reforming a lot of the ways in which we do our business and making sure that money doesn’t play a truly pernicious role in this world, in this process. It means providing checks and balances, so that the temptation to corrupt because there’s power and money sloshing around is checked from getting out of control. And right now it’s not being checked at all, and right now we’ve lost, I think, all of our moorings in this sense. It is at least heartening to me that when we went through the Democratic Party’s presidential nominating process, that people who had not served in office before, who are very fine people, but really wouldn’t have had the first ability to look at how you set up a governmental entity, an administration run things when you have to deal with a House and a Senate and a court system and the larger issues of politics.0:28:10 NO: People like Tom Steyer, for example, for all of the things that they brought to the table didn’t pass muster within the party, and the Democratic Party turned to somebody with deep experience in politics and in the executive, somebody who could hit the ground running as it were from the day after the election, on the day of the inauguration on and understands the nature of these politics. The people that we’ve elected in the past who didn’t have tended to have worse outcomes.0:28:46 JR: So speaking as someone who lives in the periphery and is not in DC, it seems like we’ve transitioned from a time where people are really identified with the major parties, Democrat and Republican. Now there’s a vast majority of Americans who are independent and are looking at different issues, at different leaders. But I sense an exhaustion in the country, and I’m wondering if that exhaustion also exists in DC, in people who are in government. And not to broadly prescribe mental health to vast sectors of the population, but where do you see our psyche as a nation and in the nation’s capital having to go through this sort of whiplash back and forth and responding to tweets and having elected officials responding to the President’s tweets, what impact is that having on our national psyche?0:30:09 NO: Not a very good one, to say the least. And it’s more than just a weariness in Washington. Washington is a complicated city. When I first got here in 1969, it was a capital that was very much like Bonn in Germany, Brasilia in Brazil, narrow places with just one focus, and that was politics and governments. You didn’t have much of an art or cultural scene other than the national museums like the Smithsonian. There was some local theater, but nothing that was all that vibrant. Other worlds just weren’t there. It was a pretty boring place; my friends from New York who came down here couldn’t wait to get back. Now it’s more of a vibrant capital and it’s more than just government, but it is still the seat of government, and that means a very large group of people in the civil service, people working directly in agencies. And right now, because we have the degradation and denigration of government at almost all levels, where we’ve seen, for example, the diplomatic corps hollowed out, the most experienced diplomats leaving or being forced out and replaced in many instances by those who do not belong there.0:31:38 NO: That started at the beginning of the Trump administration with Rex Tillerson. It’s gotten much worse with Mike Pompeo. We see it with scientists at the EPA, the stories in the last week or two, it’s not in Washington, but the Centers for Disease Control, which is in Atlanta, believing that they’ve been sidelined because they’re not doing the bidding of Donald Trump, but instead relying on their science, but also led by somebody who’s not doing a very good job. You know, the term that I’ve used for how we’re governed under Trump is kakistocracy, which is a 17th century word with a Greek root about the worst kind of government led by the worst and most unscrupulous among us.0:32:24 NO: And the morale of those working in government, the sense that you’re doing something for the nation and that it’s noble has been shattered almost across the board, and that’s true increasingly in the military as well. When you see a president who decides that he wants to shine a spotlight on people who are, by any standard, war criminals, a Navy SEAL singled out by his fellow SEALs, that band of brothers, for horrific war crimes, pardoned by the President and traveling… When we were traveling with him, and then an officer trying to protect his troops from the pandemic being removed and basically slimed in the worst terms by the Secretary of Defense, all of those things have a toll on them.0:33:22 NO: For anybody who loves the Congress and the give and take that we’ve seen there, the dysfunction, a lot of it I attribute to Mitch McConnell, who’s done as much to shatter the norms in the process as anybody else, but also the complete failure to provide a check and balance or to do any kind of real advice and consent on the President’s nominees for the courts or the Executive, all of that has sort of cast a pall on things. And when we were doing social events, dinner parties and the like, that, I used to go to plenty of events where there was a real mixture of Democrats and Republicans, and it was all lively and civil conversation. Before we did the social isolation, if anybody was doing a dinner party, they were very careful to segregate the audiences, so you didn’t end up with a shouting match or worse at the table.0:34:19 NO: It’s a very different place, and some of that may change if and when the Trump administration is gone, but it’s going to take a long time, if at all in our lifetimes before we restore some of that sense of trust and civility that we’ve had, and, you know, it’s depressing. We have to hope that one thing that emerges from the pandemic, when you get into this kind of tragedy with so many people unemployed, people who are struggling just to survive, the concerns that we’re having over loved ones potentially getting sick and dying, the nobility and courage that we see from the health providers, that maybe we’ll, just as we’ve seen in the past, in wartime or in the aftermath of 9-11, a country recognizing that we’re all vulnerable and we’re all in this together, and we have to take care of all of us.0:35:25 NO: But when I look at the way some of the… When I look at the way Fox News is covering this, when I look at politicians who are proud to call themselves pro-life saying, well, you know, Granny and Grandpa may have to die so we can get the businesses open again. When I see Asian-American health professionals being accosted on the streets and have racial slurs hurled at them because it’s called the Wuhan virus, when I see health professionals being screamed at just because they’re making a big deal out of the virus, it makes me fearful that what we’ve seen in the past, a rallying around, a coming together may not work in quite the same way.0:36:13 S?: You’re listening to All Inclusive with Jay Ruderman. You can learn more, view the show notes and transcripts at rudermanfoundation.org/allinclusive. Please remember to subscribe, rate and review us wherever you are listening.0:36:31 JR: On a macro level, in terms of our constitutional system, we’re built on a system of checks and balances, and Congress has been a check on the Executive branch. Have you seen a weakening of Congress, have you seen a capitulation to the Executive branch, and I’m not sure what role the judiciary is playing, but we have three co-equal branches of government. Are we now looking at an emergence of a superior branch in the Executive branch that really, the other branches are sort of taking a pass and letting them just grow in power and influence?0:37:20 NO: So my late mentor, Daniel Patrick Moynihan, coined a phrase and wrote an article called Defining Deviancy Down that to some significant degree, you can have a constitution in place, you can have laws in place, you can have rules in place, but you need the norms to work. You need to have this sense of institutional patriotism, as it were, people who protect their own institutions and will act to protect right against wrong. And what we’ve seen, first in the Senate, is none of that, virtually no hearings on malfeasance in governance. If you go back, and this is one of the things that I’ve found quite depressing. The Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions, the HELP Committee as it’s called, has jurisdiction over the Department of Education and the Department of Health and Human Services.0:38:22 NO: The Department of Education has been filled with corruption and scandal, the people in charge of the student loan programs are those who misused and misdirected and were under investigation for student loan abuses. The people in charge of private schools are those who were a part of some private university and school scams. You look at the Department of Health and Human Services which, among other things, was in charge of the facilities taking in those seeking asylum, had a lot to do with the child separation. The HELP Committee, which is supposed to oversee these things, chaired by somebody with a long and distinguished career in public service, Lamar Alexander, now retiring, turned a blind eye to all of it, confirmed people who had no business being confirmed. We have not seen oversight and any effective oversight of what’s going on with COVID.0:39:23 NO: And in the House of Representatives, which tried, which under Speaker Pelosi has tried to do a lot of very aggressive oversight, they’ve issued subpoenas to witnesses who refuse to testify, a White House with its own counsel putting blanket refusal on any witness from the administration coming in to testify, and courts that have refused to do anything about it, that means that you’ve effectively neutered the oversight capability. And then the institution that really has more power, because the Senate can confirm or refuse to confirm presidential nominees for the courts and for executive posts, so they could force change on a Congress that could use the appropriations process to deny money for things that a president may want, has done virtually nothing.0:40:23 NO: And if a president then even when he doesn’t get what he wants, decides that he will circumvent the law, we simply do not have the courts intervening, but we also have a Justice Department that’s supposed to be independent in many ways of the president, with an Attorney General who is far more the president’s lawyer and willing to both turn a blind eye to corruption and bad things, but also often help it out. And just one example of what we’ve seen on this front, we now know that the Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, was being investigated by the Inspector General. Just a year or so ago, I went down to Atlanta to participate in a conference on the 40th anniversary of the Inspectors General Act, which created these independent entities to make sure we didn’t waste money or engage in corruption, and the main investigation of the Inspector General was because Congress had made it very clear that they were not going to sell arms to Saudi Arabia in the aftermath of the Saudi government’s direct complicity in the torture and murder of an American in Turkey, the journalist Khashoggi.0:41:43 NO: Trump wanted to do it anyhow, and he got the Secretary of State to do it, and what in effect was a direct slap at Congress and an illicit act, and when he found out that he was being investigated, he fired, got the President to fire the Inspector General, violating the law now, because you’re supposed to give 30 days’ notice, and they have blocked the Inspector General during that 30 days from going back into his office. And then the Secretary of State lied by saying he had no idea what was being investigated when in fact he had agreed to written questions on just this. It’s a set of misdeeds and scandalous acts that cause your jaw to drop, and we’ve seen nothing in the Senate that begins to even lift a tiny little finger to try and deal with it, to denounce it, to act to stop the misdeeds.0:42:43 NO: So Congress is not doing its job. Just the other day, we had something that cast what I thought was a pretty bad light on the Supreme Court, we’d had an appeals court ruling that would give the House of Representatives access to the grand jury information of the Mueller investigation, because there’s every reason to believe that there might be deeds taken by the president that could be considered high crimes and misdemeanors, went beyond whatever he was impeached for before on the fairly narrow sense. And the Supreme Court said, no, we’re not going to let you have access to that now, we’re going to hold a full hearing, which just delays this possibly even beyond the election. They have not acted in what is the clear letter of the law to give Congress access to Trump’s tax returns, and there’s ample legislative reason for that.0:43:41 NO: So one of the main goals that Mitch McConnell had in getting Donald Trump as president, one of the main reasons that the Senate Republicans have not done anything about misconduct or misdeeds is because he’s giving them the judges that they want to put in place who will be there for 50 years or 40 years or well after they’re no longer in power, and those judges in many cases are protecting President Trump, even though their actions are at best highly questionable.0:44:14 JR: So if you go back to ’73 and Watergate and Nixon, we were living in a different world. There was the investigation, a lot of it was being played out in the Washington Post and the New York Times, and there was limited media. Now you’re living in an age of Fox News, social media, there’s a question whether if social media and Fox News were around in ’73, whether Nixon would have been placed in a position. But you did have a situation there when Senate Republicans came to Nixon and said, that’s it. You just don’t have support. And that does not seem to be the case today. Maybe that‘s because the base of that party is attuned to Trump, and there’s fear amongst the Republican party, but I think that we’re living in a very, very different age right now, and…0:45:36 NO: You’re exactly right.0:45:38 JR: And among you and your colleagues, is there fear of, not just insecurity in the country, not just sort of anxiety, but is there a fear that we may be slipping into a different form of government than our forefathers had envisioned?0:46:06 NO: Yes, there is. And what we’ve learned from history is no nation is immune from dark impulses, no nation is immune from slippage from democracy towards autocracy. And what the reality is, my wife and I, last spring, went to Germany and Poland and spent some time immersing ourselves in the history, not just of the 1930s, but the 1920s, and it’s striking. It’s particularly striking, of course, Germany, the most sophisticated, most highly educated, most cosmopolitan country in the world at the time, and you see the slippage step by step by step, you see people who you otherwise admire, see as insightful and articulate and educated getting caught up in a kind of information loop where suddenly things that are beyond bounds seem perfectly okay. You see the ability to pit one group of people in a society against the other that makes the ends justified through all of the means taken, and we’re not immune, and we’re seeing this happen in a lot of ways worldwide.0:47:38 NO: When people are uncertain because the world now is filled with uncertainties, climate uncertainties, economic uncertainties, the changing technology that means that jobs are no longer secure in the same way, and coping with the global economy becomes difficult, the reality in a global world that amplifies what happens with a pathogen when you get a pandemic, and the degree to which communications have changed, all of those things leave us open. And frankly, I’ve been jolted this past week even a little bit more because of what we’ve seen with these Inspectors General. The President has now fired the Inspectors General from the intelligence community. A man, you’re only supposed to get rid of them for cause, but fired because he did his job.0:48:39 NO: We just saw it, of course, with the State Department, clearly because the Inspector General was investigating misdeeds by the Secretary and by people around the Secretary on multiple fronts, uncovered largely was that the President also fired the Inspector General from the Department of Transportation, because that Inspector General was investigating the Secretary who’s married to Mitch McConnell, the Majority Leader, and her actions to benefit politically her husband in Kentucky, not to mention actions that benefited her family, which is a family of shipping magnates, and we’ve seen others. In many other cases, the President has gotten rid of the Inspector General and replaced them with a temporary one, they’re supposed to be confirmed by the Senate, but he’s put people in place who are cronies of his, and not even gone through the confirmation process.0:49:44 NO: And if you can get away with that, if you can get away with removing every check and balance on corruption, it’s a giant step towards a different form of government, and if they’re able to get away with this and get away with the kind of voter suppression that we’ve seen, which moves us further and further away from Americans deciding their own fate, then we are living in a different world. And we’ve always had this conceit that we were different; after all, we’ve lasted for almost 250 years with our form of government. What we’re seeing now is all the ugly things that can happen in other places, they can happen here too.0:50:25 NO: You perhaps saw the HBO series, The Plot Against America, based on the Philip Roth novel. We watched it a couple of weeks ago, and of course, it’s based on a novel where Franklin Roosevelt doesn’t win re-election in 1936 and is replaced by Charles Lindbergh, a sympathizer of Hitler and the Germans, and an administration that becomes extremely ugly with racism and anti-semitism emerging and a significant share of the society stepping up to that. And a darker ending than the book itself, where we have a new election with Roosevelt running again, but the intimation at least that no matter how the people were voting, the ballots were going to be burned, and we might get an outcome that didn’t reflect those views. That’s fiction, but it tells us that fiction can become fact.0:51:32 JR: Norm, you’re a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, where you study politics, elections, United States Congress, you’ve written and studied politics to a great extent. Have you ever considered a run for politics yourself?0:51:53 NO: I used to, I will say that it was a fantasy a long time ago. When I first started to meet with members of Congress, there was so… Such a magnet, an allure, to thinking, Oh, my God, could I be one of those? I was never in a position from the places that I lived in or what I did to ever do anything like that. I used to encourage people with talent that I knew to go into politics and run for office. It’s a little harder to do that now, but I’m past that stage. The fantasy that I did have was that I could do it without any of the heavy lifting, you know, hen I was living in Maryland, that maybe there’d be a vacancy in the Senate, and that I’d know the Governor and the Governor might appoint me, but that was a total fantasy, and that’s gone long by the boards. But I have spent a lot of time with people in Congress, and I have very dear friends.0:52:57 NO: And these are very difficult jobs, and as I saw the way the job evolved to where now you have to spend many hours a day doing what’s called call time, namely that you basically solicit money and you have to now solicit money for yourself, you have to solicit money for your party. If you want to be a leader, you have to solicit money for a leadership PAC, so that you can distribute it to others and be in a position where you can be in the leadership. And my answer is no, thanks.0:53:42 JR: Right. It is a great deal of fundraising. I want to shift a little bit to mental health, and I know that you’ve devoted a lot of time and effort to the issue of mental health, I know that you have a personal connection to mental health. You recently wrote an article in the Atlantic entitled The Coming Mental Health Crisis: Congress Must Rethink the American Approach to Mental Healthcare During the Pandemic. And in it, you mention how Congress allocated just $425 million out of $185 billion that was given to healthcare providers as a whole as a result of the CARES Act. Why was mental healthcare given such a small slice of the pie, and why do you think mental health is so often overlooked? Is it part of the stigma surrounding mental health?0:54:46 NO: I do think that that’s a significant part of it. When they started… But there’s another element too, which is in a related vein, the people pushing for funding for mental health, for help and getting the issues that surround it and the people who suffer from it and the families who do as well are just not nearly as organized or as influential as other lobbying groups. As you know, Jay, I got into this issue because, as so many do, you have a personal connection. I had a son, a brilliant young man, a national champion high school debater, went to Princeton and was out in Hollywood having some success when he had a psychotic break at age 24 and went through a 10-year struggle with serious mental illness before he died accidentally at 34, more than five years ago.0:55:46 NO: And when I first became public about this and wrote about it in an attempt to try and implement good public policy, I got flooded with responses, people who wrote to me, who called me. It was a lot of, something very similar, “I’ve never told anybody this, but… ” And it was, “I’ve never told anybody this, but my father died of suicide, my mother, my sister, my brother is seriously ill, I have a child and I don’t know what to do about it. I didn’t know that anybody else had these issues.” What became clear to me is, there isn’t a family in America where you can’t find some set of circumstances, some loved one who hasn’t been touched in a fashion by problems of mental illness and usually an often serious mental illness, but because of that stigma, people don’t speak up. The number of people affected by mental illness is significantly greater than those who have been directly affected by breast cancer or AIDS or prostate cancer, but those groups that have lobbied have had more success in getting funding and getting attention to them.0:57:00 NO: And I think it is because in part, we don’t think of mental illness as what it really is, which is a brain disease, and the brain is an organ like other organs. Even the term mental illness, I can’t tell you how many well-meaning friends of ours, highly educated, smart people, while our son was going through the struggle with what we began to call stage four brain disease, would say to us, just give him a kick in the ass, as if he had the ability to just through his own will overcome it, and that’s true whether we’re talking about clinical depression or bipolar disorder or schizophrenia or any of the others. They’re diseases of organs, and we haven’t been able to get a handle on those.0:57:56 NO: When Congress has dealt with mental illness in the past, it’s because there are members who’ve had their personal connections who have spearheaded efforts to do that. And that’s true with other areas of disability as well, as you know very well. We don’t have as many champions now, and so when you get all this money allocated for the pandemic, we didn’t have the people speaking up and saying We need more on the mental health front, and the tragedy that I think we’re facing now is an immediate one, because the people who are most vulnerable to this pandemic, the homeless people who have no ability to wash their hands, to stay clean, to stay away from others in many cases, and a very large share of them have mental illness, usually a serious mental illness. For many of those, they are like my son, which is a part of their brain disease is you don’t have any insight into your illness, what’s called anosognosia.0:59:10 NO: And if you don’t have any insight into your mental illness, and then you get something like COVID telling people, well, you need to get tested, or we need to isolate you socially, it just isn’t going to work. A large share are in prisons, and we’ve already seen that they have no personal protective equipment, no hygiene, no social isolation, and large numbers of them are becoming infected. The community mental health centers that are supposed to be the places where you can go to get treatment if there’s an emergency, or if you’re just going there to get your regular medications, many of them have closed or have drastically curtailed what they’re doing, because the people working there don’t have the gear and don’t want to be exposed, and so you can’t go and even get that medication. And then we know that more and more people are going to have exposure to their own illnesses or making them greater, depression all the way up through something more, because of the stress from the pandemic, the loss of jobs, the close quarters in which they’re living, and even perhaps an impact of the virus itself.1:00:24 NO: What we’ve seen with previous epidemics and pandemics is there’s a sharp increase in mental illness afterwards, and if we don’t have the beds or the professionals or the laws that can work to help people with mental illness now, what’s going to happen when we see a very substantial increase in the need for treatment in the aftermath of this? So we’ve got, I think, a looming bigger crisis on our hands, and at this point, we need to issue a clarion call to do something about it.1:00:58 JR: I think you’re spot on, and I’ve expressed to you in private, but do it at this point also that I’m so sorry for your loss. I do think that every American family has a connection to the issue of mental illness, it’s something that those of us who are parents worry about and think about all the time, especially in an age of social media and the pressure that young people receive. And even like, you know, the Foundation did a white paper on suicide amongst our first responders, our police, firefighters and EMTs, and it’s proven out almost every week that there is some place in the United States a first responder that takes their life. And the takeaway from the paper was that more first responders die in the line of suicide, die by suicide than in the line of duty.1:02:08 JR: So it’s a huge issue in society. I see glimmers of hope where I see public figures like a Michael Phelps or a Kevin Love in the MBA, or a Lady Gaga, Demi Lovato, significant public figures talk about their own mental health challenges, and I think that that gives hope to their fans to be more explicit. But it is something that the pressures of our society are only increasing. The more awareness out there, I believe the more potential that someone can get the help they need, but we also need our elected officials, whether they be local or state or federal, to really put more resources to it, because there are far too many people who are leaving us who don’t have to.1:03:06 JR: Now, we’re coming into the 30th anniversary of the Americans With Disabilities Act on July 26. What do you remember about the legislative process and what were the biggest points that you remember around it, because it’s really the landmark Civil Rights legislation regarding disability in this country.1:03:32 NO: No question, and I think it’s one of the high points. I would put the Americans With Disabilities Act up there with the Civil Rights Acts and with things like Medicare and Social Security as huge steps of progress in America. I just saw a couple of weeks ago this documentary called Crip Camp, which is just a marvelous and compelling movie about a group of people in New York with very serious disabilities going back to the 1950s, some of them with polio, others with every other form of disability, who were able to go to a camp set up for them in the Catskills, and some of them went on to become enormous activists in the forerunners to the Americans For Disabilities Act, and began to get out there.1:04:32 NO: And what I saw in that film and what I’ve seen with our conversations and other things as well, the stigma that surrounds metal illness has been there, and in a very deep way, for other disabilities as well. We didn’t look at people in wheelchairs as human beings in the same way. If you had cerebral palsy and you couldn’t talk the way others talked, if you had deafness or other disabilities. I have deafness in my family going back and had an uncle who told me that as a young person, profoundly deaf, they almost put him at an early age, five or six, into an institution, the equivalent of a mental institution where he would have had to spend the rest of his life. Instead, he went on, went to Gallaudet College, was a star there.1:05:33 NO: But this was something we tried to turn our backs on. And when it became more visible and it became a major civil rights movement, it opened up a lot of eyes and it created different possibilities. But of course, the other reality is that we needed legislative champions who had the drive and the motivation and the power and the ability to bring about change. And there, of course, it involved members of Congress who had tragedies or difficulties or experiences in their own families. And one who you know well and who I’ve also been proud to know as a friend is Tom Harkin. Tom had as much to do with this as anybody else, Pete Domenici, former Senator from New Mexico, who’s championed, who championed these issues when he was in the Senate. We were able to get things done because of that concatenation of events, of the ability to see human beings where we’d looked through them before, and the need to have those champions who could actually make this happen.1:06:56 NO: And it’s had a profound impact on the society, and I don’t think it’s possible to look at this without saying that it has been an enormously beneficial impact, not just for those people with disabilities and their families, but for everybody. It’s lifted everybody up, it’s opened up a talent base in the society that was shut down before. In much the same way, if you go back, that we saw that talent base of more than half the population of women opened up to other opportunities and contributing to all of us. So it’s one of the great things that’s happened in our lifetimes.1:07:40 JR: I wanted… I mean, of course, you mentioned Tom Harkin and Pete Domenici and I think someone also like in the House side, Tony Coelho, was a leading factor, among others. And we have to give credit to the first President Bush for signing it into legislation. Our Foundation had the privilege of sponsoring the Sundance Film Festival in Utah under the auspices of Robert Redford, and the opening film was Crip Camp, and it’s an amazing film, I would recommend it to anyone because it’s a great story, but it really tells the emergence of the disability rights movement. Where do you think the ADA has to go from here? What more needs to be done that it’s just not… That hasn’t been covered in the initial legislation?1:08:45 NO: Well, just to mention one area, and it’s one we’ve worked on together, we need to make sure that all those people with every kind of disability is able to vote. Access to voting, which has now become of course a huge issue in the middle of the pandemic, but to be able to gain that access, we don’t have, it’s deeply unfortunate, an absolute constitutional right to vote. It’s there for segments of the population in the 14th Amendment, but what we’ve seen is more efforts to make it harder to vote more generally than to make it easier to vote. But even where we have seen efforts to make it easier there are blind spots, as it were, when it comes to many areas of disability, and that’s going to be true with votes by mail, absentee votes, as it is with access to polling places, with the ability to vote yourself if you are blind, if you are without hearing, if you are in a wheelchair. And so many other ways, places that have made it easier, but it’s not universally perceived.1:10:14 NO: So that’s one area certainly where I think we need to do better. But I think we also have to… There’s certainly more access to buildings, there are more rights available to those with disabilities. I worry, frankly, that we may see a setback now if we’re in a world where it’s an us versus them kind of society, and I would say maybe as much as anything we have to make sure we don’t see some attempts to dilute the Act itself, give more ability for employers to fire people or not to hire people, take away some of the requirements for access, move more… Back towards more stigma. So there are things we need to do to make this bigger and better, but we also have to make sure we don’t make it lesser.1:11:15 JR: That’s actually a point that I had a conversation recently with the chairman of a board I serve on, the National Organization of Disability, but the former Governor of Pennsylvania and First Secretary of Homeland Security, Tom Ridge talked about coming out of the pandemic and the additional hurdles that people with disabilities may have to face regarding employment, so there is so much left to be done. And in my conversations with Senator Tom Harkin he said that one of the things that the Americans With Disabilities Act never was able to improve was the employment of people of disabilities across our country. So there is still work to be done. I want to end with something that’s very personal and important to you, and we’ve been talking about this off and on over the years, but the Matthew Harris Ornstein Memorial Foundation has done some really great things. Could you just talk a little bit about some of the things that the Foundation does and how the listeners of this podcast can find out more about the activities of the Foundation?1:12:33 NO: Absolutely, I will. First of all, if you go to mornstein, MORNSTEIN, dot org, you’ll see all kinds of things about our son and what we’ve been doing in his memory. When you lose a child, your options are basically to curl up in a corner or to decide you’re going to do something to try and make sense out of a horrible, unspeakable tragedy. And so we decided to do the latter, and we’ve been involved in two main areas. One of course is trying to change the world surrounding mental illness, so that people who suffer from severe illnesses don’t have to go through the horrors and pain and stigma that our son did and that their families don’t have to suffer, especially in a system that’s completely broken. So I’ve been involved in trying to implement better policy, but we’re also doing two things on that front.1:13:38 NO: One is we’ve produced a documentary about a quite remarkable judge in Miami Dade County in Florida named Steve Leifman who’s completely transformed the way the criminal justice system deals with those with serious mental illness. That wasn’t something that was a big issue with our son, but it is with so many others, so many who end up encountering the criminal justice system in a very bad way. And Leifman has found ways to save lives and save money. Going back to one of the things that you said earlier, Jay, he’s now trained over 7500 police officers in a week-long intensive program called Crisis Intervention Team Policing, where they learn how to de-escalate conflict rather than the training that teaches them to escalate if somebody doesn’t obey a command, to be sensitive to and to understand when they‘re dealing with somebody with a mental illness.1:14:38 NO: And one of the side effects of that is they’re getting 150 to 200 calls a month into their mental health hotline from police officers, many of whom suffer from PTSD or depression and, as you said, more die from suicide than from the normal things or the terrible things that can happen on the job, and now they’re realizing that they can get treatment and that what they have is not something to be ashamed of or to hide. So we’ve done this documentary that aired on Public Broadcasting on April 14th, that’s available at pbs.org. It’s called The Definition of Insanity. I would encourage people to go to the pbs.org website and watch it, and then we want to take it around the country whenever we’re able to take anything around the country and try and engage in conversations with stakeholders and others and spread best practices. Because we need resources to improve the system, but you can actually do it in a way that saves lives and saves money.1:15:44 NO: We’re also working with this marvelous psychologist named Xavier Amador, who’s written a book called I’m Not Sick, I Don’t Need Help, about how you can communicate with and perhaps even partner with people who have this phenomenon called anosognosia, where you don’t have any insight into your illness, and if you try to argue with them or use reason, you get nowhere and you can be alienated. And Xavier has found a way to communicate that can really make it much better and easier for families and for first responders and others to have interactions with those with a serious mental illness, and he’s done trainings around the country, and we’ve co-sponsored those with him for… And also to train people to train others. We’d like to expand that even to schools and other places.1:16:38 NO: And then finally we’re doing something that our son would have been very happy about, and that is the debate front. He was, as I’d mentioned earlier, a national champion high school debater, it was a great thing for him, it was his entree into Princeton. Debate teaches you life skills, how to get up in front of others and do public speaking, how to do research, learning all sides of issues, learning substance, learning how to reason better and think on your feet, and schools love this. And what we did was we created a summer debate camp for public school kids, mostly Title I, in the Washington, DC area, working with a non-profit called the Washington Urban Debate League.1:17:24 NO: And our camp last summer was for two weeks, we had 185 kids, 85% minorities, from rising sixth graders through high school, then they go back to their schools and form teams and do tournaments every year. We give out an award at the end of the camp, the Matthew Ornstein Award, to the debater, not the best debater, but the one who best exemplifies his values, which include hard work and team work and the compassion and empathy for others. And the winner of the award in 2017, a young man named Jonathan Collins, won the award that year, and has now gone on and is a student at Harvard where he was recruited by the debate coach to give him opportunities that he wouldn’t have had otherwise. Coming from a working class family, debate opened up things for him and gave him the kinds of skills that are going to make him succeed in life. And now we have a challenge, we’re probably going to have to do a virtual camp this summer.1:18:30 NO: Boston, by the way, has one of the best urban debate leagues reaching large numbers of young people, and it’s one of those things, and it’s another thing that you can reflect on for those with, who have different kinds of disabilities. We all believe in equal opportunity, at least we say we do, but it’s not equal opportunity when some people start 25 yards ahead of the starting blocks and others start 25 yards behind, and you can be 25 yards behind because you have a disability, physical or mental, or because your family doesn’t have any resources, or because you don’t have an intact family, and that can be worse if you are a person of color. And what we’re trying to do with the debate camp and with the whole area of debate is to get people up to the starting blocks, so that their own drive and intelligence and other qualities can give them those opportunities to succeed in life and to help others. And we all ought to be thinking about ways in which we can do those things, and it’s been gratifying, at least, to have played a small part for some with what we’re doing in our Foundation.1:19:46 JR: Well, Norm, I really want to thank you for being my guest on All Inclusive. Your insights, both into the political world, but also into our general society and making our society a better place, were really helpful and appreciated, and I want to thank you so much and wish you and your family all the best. And hopefully we’ll see our world continue to get to be a more fair, equitable place as time goes on. So thank you so much.1:20:28 NO: Well, thank you, Jay. And I also want to thank you and your family for doing all that you have done. Your Foundation is really a beacon in this area, and you’ve managed to accomplish so much in so many areas, and it was in some ways a model for us when we tried to think about what we were going to do and how we can operate.1:20:52 JR: Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us once again. It’s been such a pleasure having you listen and follow along. This is the end of Season 3 so if you want more be sure to go back and listen to more episodes from the season on Apple Podcast, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcast. We will of course be back in a couple of months with more amazing stories and more amazing guests. Once again, I’m Jay Ruderman and thank you for listening to All Inclusive.1:20:58 S?: All Inclusive is a production of the Ruderman Family Foundations. Our key mission is the full inclusion of people with disabilities in all aspects of society. You can find All Inclusive on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Spotify and Stitcher. To view the show notes, transcripts or to learn more, go to rudermanfoundation.org/allinclusive. Have an idea for a podcast? Be sure to tweet @JayRuderman.

Jay Ruderman (00:00):The COVID-19 pandemic has caused many changes to everyone’s lives. In many locations, you cannot go out to eat, see a movie or gather with friends. Most sporting events have been canceled or postponed, including the 2020 Tokyo Paralympics.Jay Ruderman (00:20):Hi, I’m Jay Ruderman, host of All Inclusive. Today, we have the second most decorated Paralympian in US history and someone who’s directly affected by the postponement, Jessica Long.Speaker 2 (00:40):All Inclusive, a podcast on inclusion, innovation and social justice with Jay Ruderman.Jay Ruderman (00:51):Jessica, thank you for joining us on All Inclusive. You have had a very impressive life and a very successful athletic career. So maybe you can just start by telling us a little bit about your beginnings and your history and how you got into athletics.Jessica Long (01:12):First, thanks for having me. I’m super excited to be a part of this and to share my story, which happens to be all the way back in Russia. I was born to a 16-year-old Russian girl and due to a birth defect, she just wasn’t able to take care of me. So she made a really difficult decision and decided to put me up for adoption in hopes that I would be adopted by a good family. And during this time there was an American couple here in Baltimore who had two children, but were told that they couldn’t have any more. So they looked into adoption and when they saw a picture of me and another little boy in the same orphanage, they just knew we were the children they were meant to adopt.Jessica Long (01:48):So my dad went to Russia in 1993, got me and the little boy and named us Jessica and Joshua. And then it’s pretty crazy and amazing how everything works out because after we were adopted, they had two more little girls. So I’m one of six kids, really big family. I love it. I love being a part of such a incredible family dynamic. I was really truly in such an incredible family unit. They didn’t let my disability define me. I had incredible parents, Steve and Beth Long who taught me, if I fell down and I lost a prosthetic leg, to get back up.Jessica Long (02:23):And I certainly had a lot of moments in my life that I really questioned why, why me, why did I have to go back in for another surgery? And what they ended up finding out after I was adopted is that I was born with this birth defect called fibular hemimelia, which basically means I was missing all the bones in my lower legs. And they amputated a foot that I had on both of my legs and my three toes, so I could wear the prosthetic legs. And that took about a six month decision on whether or not to amputate this little foot, which I’m really glad they did because I’m able to wear all sorts of different prosthetic legs.Jessica Long (02:59):But I was a really active child. I wanted to be just like everyone else. My parents one time told me, you know, there was a group of kids at my brother’s baseball game and they were going up and down this hill and just playing. And I saw the kids and I just wanted to be like them. So I decided right then and there that I was going to try to walk up and down that hill. But for me in two prosthetics, that was really difficult because anything that’s not level, I would fall down, I would lose a leg, but I just always had this determination. And it really worked out when I joined a swim team and I started getting involved with that sport.Jay Ruderman (03:31):You’ve obviously excelled at swimming. You are the second most decorated Paralympian of all time. Maybe talk a little bit about swimming and how you were drawn to swimming and how you became such an accomplished swimmer.Jessica Long (03:44):For me, I was always a really active child. I think that goes back to all the surgeries I’ve had. Every time I grew, I had to get a surgery. And I think I really learned to appreciate just being active, right? Just being like a normal kid. So when I was really little, I would climb on top of the refrigerator, I would jump around, I would do somersaults and flips. And my parents decided to get me involved in gymnastics. And over time, my parents were really afraid I would damage my knees in gymnastics with all the jumping. So they sat me down and they gave me an ultimatum and they said, “You can continue, but you have to wear your prosthetics.”Jessica Long (04:18):And I didn’t really like my prosthetics at the time. They weren’t as high-tech as they are today. So we decided to just try a new sport and I had always loved to swim. It just seemed like the perfect fit in swimming. In Paralympic swimming, you are not allowed to wear any form of prosthetic. And I think I love that about the sport is that I’m able to take these two heavy prosthetic legs that I walk in every single day and I just leave them on the edge of the pool. And I jump in and I feel completely and totally just capable and strong and confident. And I think that’s why I’m still swimming to this day.Jay Ruderman (04:53):And so what do you attribute your success to? I mean, is it just really hard work and determination and just staying with it for years? Do you have a natural athletic ability that has made you a great swimmer?Jessica Long (05:06):Yeah, I think it’s a combination. I think it comes within to set goals and to want to reach them. I think for sure, being adopted from Russia and somewhat that desire to prove myself that I was worthy, that I was worth it probably comes into play. I also think wanting to be just like the other kids and having a very visible difference on the swim teams that I’ve been a part of. I have been on swim teams that I was the only girl missing legs and they didn’t treat me like that. They treated me like a friend and a competitor first and I loved when I could beat these boys or girls with legs. And I just always worked on the details and the technique. And I think that really helped give me that edge.Jay Ruderman (05:47):And what about other sports? Because you do many other sports and are there sports that you like to do other than swimming and there are things that you’ve excelled at other than swimming?Jessica Long (05:56):I really love swimming. It takes a lot of my time, especially at this level. I like being creative. I definitely think when I’m not swimming, I like interior design. I like going into a coffee shop and writing and really inspiring the next generation for sure. And swimming has given me that platform. I don’t know what sport I want to try next, but I would love to try triathlon, but for now I’m just focusing on my swimming career.Jay Ruderman (06:23):So let’s talk a little bit about the Paralympics because the foundation was involved in creating an organization called Link20, which are self-advocates, people with and without disabilities. And one of the success stories they had is they approached the US Olympic Committee and said, “Listen, there is disparity between the pay that Paralympians are receiving for receiving medals as opposed to Olympians.” And they were successful. Ultimately the US Olympic Committee agreed that Paralympians and Olympians should be paid the same amount for their Olympic medals. But the viewership for Paralympics is much less than the Olympics. Just give me your thoughts about being a Paralympian and competing and the tension between maybe the Olympics and the Paralympics and your thoughts on that.Jessica Long (07:23):Yeah. I think bottom line, we compete for Team USA. There should be no gap. And I was super excited to see that Operation Gold happened when it did. And of course, as an athlete, I can learn to appreciate where we’re at. And I know the Ruderman family, you guys had a huge role in helping push that Operation Gold. But we need that, people who care and want this Paralympic Movement to grow and to become even bigger. And I think here in the United States, we’re still catching up. And I’m excited to see progress and I hope to continue to help that.Jessica Long (07:58):I remember being a little girl standing kind of in the corner and we were at a media summit, which happens before every Olympic and Paralympic Games. And they invited maybe three Paralympic athletes and then the rest, I mean, it was over a couple hundred Olympic athletes and I was one of the Paralympic athletes. And I just remember looking over in the corner and it was a whole bunch of swimmers. And I remember thinking, “One day, they’re going to know who we are.” We’re not going to ever have to explain what a Paralympic athlete is.Jessica Long (08:25):And I’m super excited. I see it growing. I get excited for the next little boy or girl who happened to be born without an arm or a leg, or was born with CP or had an accident that they know that they can be an elite athlete. And I really think that as I’ve gotten older, that’s become my motivation. I used to swim to win gold medals. Now I swim to prove to the next little boy or girl that they can do it too.Jay Ruderman (08:47):You’ve won 23 Paralympic medals, 13 gold, six silver and four bronze. You’ve competed in four Paralympics competitions in 2004, 2008, 2012, and 2016. And I was really interested to find out that you were the youngest athlete on a US Paralympic swim team in Athens, age 12. I didn’t know someone could be a Paralympian at age 12, but that’s quite impressive. You’ve also received the ESPN Best Female Athlete with a Disability, the SB Award in 2007, 2012, and 2013. And you were named Sports Illustrated among the best female athletes in 2006 and 2011, named Disabled Swimmer of the Year by Swimming World Magazine. Those accomplishments, in addition to be a member of the Forbes’ 30 Under 30, with all of those accomplishments as an athlete, how have you taken that and used that celebrity to advocate for sport and for people with disabilities in sports?Jessica Long (09:54):It’s been really incredible to share my story. I think number one is sharing and just giving someone hope or an inspiration that they can do it. I know growing up, I had my own role models within the Paralympic Movement. But I think one of the best things about sport is it teaches confidence. And I think growing up without legs where you know you’re different and you see it, you can’t hide this insecurity, it’s very helpful to be a part of something that builds that confidence. And ways that I try to give back and help is just here within my own community in Baltimore, whether that’s speaking at different schools or coaching a swim team. I coached a swim team for three years. It was out of my comfort zone, but it was one of the biggest learning experiences in my swimming career thus far.Jessica Long (10:41):Paralympics, we do different things where we give back to the up-and-coming generation where we go and we swim at the swim meets and we just, we’re there. We’re just there to cheer on the athletes who are really scared and intimidated, and they don’t even know how to approach their challenge or what they happen to be facing. But when they see the older generation, the veterans just coming up and talking to them, you can see this light and how excited they get and how they want to be, not just an Olympic athlete, but they want to be a Paralympic athlete. And I think that for me is incredible.Jessica Long (11:16):I remember there was one time I was at a swim meet and this dad came up with his daughter and said that she had just lost her leg from cancer. And that moment has been stuck. I will never forget this moment that it was never really about winning gold medals that, yes, the gold medals are incredible and being a part of Team USA, but that moment where this little girl had this role model and hero really touched me in this way. That is probably why I’m still a part of this and aiming for my fifth Paralympics. And I think right now, my job is still to keep swimming and to still keep proving that others can do it. But I get really excited for what’s to come when this chapter of my life comes to an end, this swimming career, where I want to take it and where I want to see change even within the Paralympic Movement.Jay Ruderman (12:01):So is there much interaction between Olympians and Paralympians? Is there training together? Do you work on strategy together?Jessica Long (12:11):Not as much as I would like. We actually are separate, so there’s USA swimming and we have our own NGB within Paralympics. So we don’t do a ton… Actually, we don’t do anything really together, which is a thing I would like to change. I would love to see us do more swim meets together. In other countries, they have meets together. They have their Olympic and Paralympic trials together. And that’s something that I would love to see happen within my lifetime with swimming.Jessica Long (12:36):But for me, when I was swimming in Paralympics, I would tell people… People would brag or say, “Oh my goodness, she’s won some Paralympic medals,” or, “she’s won Olympic medals.” And someone would turn to me and say, “Oh my gosh, you’re an Olympian.” And I’d be like, “Well, yes. Yeah. I mean, I’m a Paralympian, it’s the same thing.” And as soon as I said I was a Paralympic athlete, you could just tell that they went from this respect to this amazing like, “Oh my gosh, an Olympic athlete,” to, “Oh, what’s wrong with you?” Or, “Oh, you’re a Paralympic athlete.” And that I just…Jessica Long (13:08):I always had this itch and this drive to prove that Paralympic athletes were elite athletes too. And I moved from the Olympic training center in Colorado to Baltimore in 2013. And I trained with Michael Phelps. I trained under Bob Bowman. I think that proved to me that every day I had to give 110%, but just to compete or just to train with the Olympic athletes to prove that I never have to tell someone if I’m just as good as an Olympic athlete. I trained with them. I did the work that Michael Phelps did. We were teammates.Jay Ruderman (13:38):Tell me what type of discrimination you faced in your life outside of sport, being a person with a disability, stigma that you’ve faced, how you’ve dealt with that stigma, how you’ve overcome it.Jessica Long (13:52):I’ve had wonderful parents who, when I was growing up, they really taught me that kids were curious. And if they stare, that was okay. I always had a harder time when adults would stare and point. And something that I face on the daily, I would say is just parking in handicap. People parking in handicap might have a heart disease. It could be an invisible disability. And for me, I park in handicap parking because I’m missing two legs. If it’s warm out, I start to sweat. If it’s snowing, if it’s raining, these are all elements that I notice walking in two prosthetic legs.Jessica Long (14:23):And I get a lot of pretty nasty comments and that’s not really cool. And I try to really remain calm or try to share, “Hey, I’m an amputee. That’s kind of why I’m parking…” And that’s something that I would really love to change and just teach people that you don’t always see, you don’t always know what’s going on and to not judge before you… And you don’t even need to really know, but that’s one thing I face all the time. And even to the point where I’ve thought maybe I don’t want to park in handicap because it can just be so exhausting, but I’ve decided that if I don’t park in handicap, that’s kind of giving into what they’re saying. And I do need it. I just decided to just continue to talk and talk calmly and just say, “Hey, you don’t know. That’s okay, but I do park in handicap because I need it.”Speaker 2 (15:09):You’re listening to All Inclusive with Jay Ruderman. You can learn more, view the show notes and transcripts at rudermanfoundation.org/allinclusive.Jay Ruderman (15:20):Please remember to subscribe, rate and review us wherever you are listening.Jay Ruderman (15:27):I mean, there’s obviously a great deal of stigma about disability out there. Let me ask you something a little bit that you’ve been very outspoken on, which is an issue that’s important. In Sports Illustrated and other publications have written about this, about cheating that goes on within the Paralympics and maybe athletes who are posing as Paralympians, but are not truly disabled. I‘m just curious as your point of view on it.Jessica Long (15:55):Going into the 2016 Rio Games, it was very evident it was going to happen. And I was kind of scared. I was 24. I was still learning my voice, learning that people would even listen, that I had a voice to begin with. It really was an issue back then. I mean, it’s been an ongoing issue. It really started affecting my classification in the 2016 Games. What we’re dealing with right now is just that the IPC hasn’t really addressed it instead of acknowledging that there was an issue that I understand it’s never going to be this perfect system. And it’s really hard to classify so many different types of challenges or disabilities.Jessica Long (16:32):I think there’s different ways to be able to look at it. And the big picture is ruining Paralympics. I think ultimately it’s ruining for the next generation to come up because what will end up happening is you’ll have a person right now in my classification who’s an S10. So two classes higher. Sometimes S10s look completely able-body. You don’t really know what’s even wrong. So that means they could have two arms and two legs. Drop down from two classes, nothing’s changed and she’ll break all the world records. Right now, she’s breaking every world record by, I mean, smashing these world records. And then if she gets… She’s up for review in 2021, she’ll move, but the records remain the same or they don’t change. And she gets to keep her medals.Jessica Long (17:12):And I mean, I think it’s the new doping within Paralympics is kind of what’s going on and people are doing it intentionally, but they’re not calling it. And even though there’s records of athletes swimming slower in the review swim, and then dropping 10 seconds at night once they’re confirmed and breaking the world record, I think that’s a pretty big indication. And what I really wanted to address with that article was if not me, then who? And again, swimming has given me this platform and you don’t have to love me. You don’t have to like what I’m doing, but this is such a bigger issue than me. And the amount of support that I’ve gotten through this article, I didn’t even know I had people who were supporting me in the way that they have just re-posting.Jessica Long (17:53):Especially through social media, I’ve gotten a lot of great messages that just like, “Thank you. Now that you’re saying this, I want to say something too.” But it’s a really big issue. And it’s hard to put it all within a couple of minutes, but I would love to see it changed. And I’m really thankful that the Paralympics can’t take away what I’ve already done, winning those medals. But I am a really strong voice and I don’t back down easily and I’m going to keep fighting for the next little girl or boy that wants to compete in the 2028 Games.Jay Ruderman (18:21):How can it stop? Bigger crack down by certain committees, better oversight? How do you stop this problem?Jessica Long (18:29):Yeah. So we actually have something in place. It talks about misrepresentation. And it’s a two year ban, which is just as serious as doping. If you happen to take a substance, it’s a very serious thing and we’ve never used it in swimming. They use it in archery, maybe in 2006 was the last time. And we have cases that we had presented to the IPC that say, “Hey, look at the records. Look at the way that people are swimming.” But also I think it would be really great to try a surprise… We have surprise drug testing. Drug testing needs to know where I am every single day for one hour, but I think we should do some surprise classification where throughout the entire year, you don’t know when you’re going to be up for review.Jessica Long (19:12):Because the problem is these athletes know when they’re being reviewed by the classifiers. So they know that tonight I’m going to be looked at, so I’m going to swim slower. I’m not going to kick, or I’m going to add time. It’s a way of knowing. And I think we maybe should try a little bit more of a surprise kind of attack. Like, “Hey, we have a World Series. There’s five swim meets. In one of these World Series that you compete in, we’re going to be testing out and reviewing, but you don’t know. You have no idea.” And also informing the classifiers. A lot of the classifiers don’t really understand the history of some of these athletes. And I think just as long as we’re talking about it, that’s a good start.Jay Ruderman (19:51):From the outside, it would seem you either are competing with a disability that is a visible disability, or you’re not. But I guess, it’s not as simple as that and the classifications are much more complicated. I mean, that’s what I’m hearing.Jessica Long (20:08):Yes. It’s pretty complicated, but there’ll be stuff like people with CP will take cold showers before their review swim, or just people swimming extremely slow. And as athletes, we have seen these athletes or these swimmers swim for years. So when all of a sudden you’re swimming significantly slower and then drop down a classification and win gold and everything, I think that’s a little bit of an indication that wait a second, there’s a red flag here.Jessica Long (20:30):Also, I think if you get moved from a classification, then your records go with you and your gold medals and everything. And especially if it’s misrepresentation. But I think the big thing is right now in the S8 category, there’s not a lot of amputees, most amputees can’t and we’re losing athletes. And I think that’s really the sad thing is that I’ve had a few girls write me and decided to retire because there’s no point in competing. In their eyes, there’s no point in competing because it’s a fight that they just feel like they can’t fight.Jay Ruderman (20:59):Well, first of all, thank you for your advocacy. And thank you for trying to keep sport more pure and honest, which I think is what people are looking for. Let me ask you, we’re living in the time of a coronavirus pandemic. How are you doing during this time and how’s your family doing? Are you able to train? Are you able to keep yourself physically fit during this time?Jessica Long (21:24):I’m doing okay. Swimming, we’re going on week three now that we’ve been quarantined. My husband is working from home. I have not been able to swim. I did find a pool that was about two hours away. And I drove to that pool a couple of days before it got shut down as well. Family’s good. We’re all just kind of hanging in there, doing our part. But yeah, it is tough. I worry a lot about the disabled community.Jessica Long (21:46):And I had this crazy thought the other day. I need a lot of rubbing alcohol for my legs, my prosthetics to clean them a deep clean, and I just realized it’s completely gone. I have no idea where to even go to get it. And I was just thinking, if something as small as rubbing alcohol that I need, it brings light to what are others doing? And someone who’s in a wheelchair or who might be missing both arms or who really is struggling. And I think that, that really hit home. That goodness, we all just need to really do our part and help each other and not take more than what we need. I think that’s been a huge thing. Just seeing that.Jay Ruderman (22:21):Is it throwing your training schedule off, the fact that we’re now under quarantine?Jessica Long (22:26):I’m used to swimming about five hours a day. And if you miss a day of swimming, it takes about two, two and a half days to get back into it. So right now it’s been about three weeks since I’ve really been able to swim. So I’m trying to do my best to do home workouts, I’m staying mentally strong, taking care of my mental health, as well as my physical and just trying to stay in a routine. I think that’s been the best thing for me.Jay Ruderman (22:48):What is your recommendations for people who are at home to keep themselves active? What should they be doing, I mean, in terms of physical and mental health?Jessica Long (22:57):I think journaling is incredible. I think if you can just write your thoughts. We all have cell phones these days, even just going to your notes and writing how you’re feeling that day, what you’re grateful for, what you want to work on. And I think just understanding that you don’t have to be an Olympic athlete training, right? You can do abs 15 minutes and there are so many amazing websites. YouTube is incredible. There’s so many things that you can do online and find these quick little workouts just to get your heart rate up. And I think that exercise really helps with even the mental health and just feeling better or just feeling more alive or awake. And I noticed that if I feel sluggish, as soon as I do a little 15 to 30 minute workout, the day seems better and brighter. I really am big on gratitude and just being thankful that I’m still at home, I’ve got some food and I understand that not everyone has that. And just, yeah, doing the best that we can.Jay Ruderman (23:49):Most people in this world will never win a gold medal. What does it feel like to win the medal, to represent your country?Jessica Long (23:59):In that moment when you’re standing up there and you’re hearing your national anthem, it’s not even about that moment. It’s so crazy. It’s about the coaches or your coach who pushed you on that practice that you fought him or you didn’t want to do it. Or your parents for all those years of driving you back and forth to swim practice with other kids. My parents had six kids and they found a way to drive me morning and night to swim practice. And your friends and your supporters and your sponsors. It’s every single person who believed in you. And it’s like, this moment is for all of us. It’s everyone who believed in me. Yes, I’m standing here with this gold medal, but it’s so much bigger because you realize that no one can take it away from you. You’re standing up there and you’re getting the gold medal and your heart is beating so fast. And you’re looking over the pool that you just won the race. I mean, I want to do it again.Jay Ruderman (24:46):I’m sure you’ll be successful. One of the more sort of mundane questions, but I’m just curious, what does a Paralympian eat before you compete?Jessica Long (24:55):Yeah, it’s a lot of pasta, but it’s not too much pasta, a lot of fruits and veggies, protein. If anything, it’s eating every couple hours to make sure that our body is constantly burning the fuel. But just being the healthiest that you can be. And that means sleeping a lot and recovery and staying strong. And at the same time, you’re putting in so much work in the pool that you feel it if you’re eating bad stuff, but I do allow myself to eat like sushi. I would say sushi is probably like the worst thing I eat.Jay Ruderman (25:22):So when you’re training, how many calories a day are you consuming?Jessica Long (25:25):It’s not as many. It’s good calories. I would say probably around 3000, 3,500 in heavy training, which I probably swim about 50 miles by six days. So I swim a lot. It’s just the preparation takes a long time.Jay Ruderman (25:39):In 2014, in the Sochi Olympics, the Winter Olympics, you were a commentator for NBC. What was that like? And maybe, once your career is over, what are your plans? I mean, is that something you’re looking to get into more?Jessica Long (25:58):Yeah, that was a pretty incredible experience. When these crazy opportunities come up, I’ve always wanted to just say yes to them. I want to try new things. I want to get out of my comfort zone. And that was definitely something that was really out of my comfort zone. I don’t know if many people knew this, but two months prior to going there to commentate, I just met my birth family in Russia. So I had just been back to Russia and then commentated for the Sochi Games. So it was cool how it all kind of played a role, but it was hard. It was so hard to be behind the camera and to ask the questions and to think ahead, and if they answered the question within the question and it was my next question ask, how do you come up with the next question? And I loved it. It was hard, but I like doing hard things.Jessica Long (26:45):And something I really would love to do and get more into, I like watching different YouTube clippings and just trying to learn body language and how to hold and just learning the best that I can. And again, right now I’m still swimming. And now that Tokyo has pushed back another year, I’ve got some extra time. Still training. But once swimming is done, and I don’t know what that could look like. I don’t know. I have this weird goal and desire to end my career in LA in 2028, but that’s another, what, eight years. So we’ll see if maybe I’ll commentate that games, but for now I still love swimming.Jessica Long (27:21):It’s been really great, but I love motivational speaking or just being a life coach type thing. I think people really need hope and encouragement and teaching how to be number one in the world or number one at what you’re doing. I love talking about those topics or giving back to the community. And especially my heart is within the disabled community, for sure. I know firsthand what that’s like to feel different and to just be different, but to also learn that we were born to stand out and there’s a reason. And that is really exciting to me.Jay Ruderman (27:53):Any interest in acting?Jessica Long (27:57):Never have done acting, but my sister is the actor. But yeah, who knows. That could be fun too.Jay Ruderman (28:01):Because we’ve been very engaged as a foundation in the entertainment industry. And we’ve gotten to meet a lot of champions of people in the industry who are looking to cast people with disabilities. We just honored the Farrelly brothers who are directors and have produced many successful comedies. And I think that if it’s something you’re interested in, I’m sure there’s opportunities to make the right connection.Jay Ruderman (28:30):So it’s been a pleasure speaking to you. You’re by far one of the most accomplished individuals we’ve had on this broadcast. And I know the disability community has many, many people who are great spokespeople, but you’re amongst them and I think that you can be a great advocate as well as a great athlete. So thank you so much for joining us today.Jessica Long (28:56):Thank you for having me.Speaker 2 (29:01):All Inclusive is a production of the Ruderman Family Foundation. Our key mission is the full inclusion of people with disabilities in all aspects of society. You can find All Inclusive on Apple Podcast, Google Play, Spotify and Stitcher. To view the show notes, transcripts, or to learn more, go to rudermanfoundation.org/allinclusive. Have an idea for a podcast, be sure to tweet @JayRuderman.

Jay Ruderman (00:05):Harvard University is one of the most prestigious and well-known universities in the world. Universities and educational systems are now facing significant challenges as a result of a worldwide pandemic and calls to address systematic racial injustice in our society.Jay Ruderman (00:21):Today, I’m honored to be joined by Harvard’s 29th president Dr. Lawrence Bacow to find out how he is addressing these challenges and how his personal history has shaped his outlook on life.Announcer (00:39):All Inclusive, a podcast on inclusion, innovation, and social justice with Jay Ruderman.Jay Ruderman (00:50):Welcome President of Harvard University, Lawrence Bacow. I hope you’re well and thank you for joining us on All Inclusive.Lawrence Bacow (00:59):Thanks for the invitation.Jay Ruderman (01:01):Let me just jump right in and ask you. How has Harvard reacted to the Coronavirus pandemic and how will Harvard and other universities in your opinion move forward in supporting their students and faculty during this unique period in time?Lawrence Bacow (01:17):We’ve been focused on the Coronavirus since it first broke out in China in early January. We have lots of students who come from China, we have faculty who do work in China, so we were attentive to what was going on there because we were concerned as with any new virus that there was a potential for people to travel there and bring it back to our campus.Lawrence Bacow (01:38):We’re also blessed at Harvard to have some of the foremost experts in the world on epidemiology, on virology, on public health. And so from the very beginning, they were advising us in terms of what was going on. We had the opportunity in mid to late January to enter into a partnership with the Guangzhou Institute for Respiratory Health. This is a world-renowned Chinese research organization and they wanted to know whether or not we would be willing to collaborate, which we agreed to do so.Lawrence Bacow (02:10):We started collaborating with them very early on and created something called the Massachusetts Consortium on Pathogen Readiness, which engages all of Harvard schools, our affiliated teaching hospitals, but also our colleagues at MIT, at BU, at Tufts, the University of Massachusetts Medical Center. And as a result, Harvard has really become the center for research on the coronavirus worldwide. The first two vaccines that have gone into human trials have come out of Harvard. So we’re quite proud of that.Lawrence Bacow (02:40):So Harvard’s been deeply involved wearing our scholarly hat. And I would say that this is a time in which the nation’s research universities more broadly have never been more important. Because if we’re going to find a solution to this pandemic, it’s going to come out of scholarship and research. And we were, I think the second university in the country to send students home. This was after the University of Washington.Lawrence Bacow (03:03):We did so prompted by the timing of our spring break. We were criticized at the time for acting prematurely. In retrospect, it looks like it was certainly the right decision. So now we’re focused on plans for the fall. As you ask, what are we going to do like many other institutions? A number of our professional schools have already made announcements and we’re trying to prioritize public health and safety. The events in the last several weeks have demonstrated to us that we must be modest in our ability to predict and control this virus.Jay Ruderman (03:33):First of all, I want to thank you and all of Harvard for working towards a vaccine, because I think a vaccine will allow all of us to resume a normal life. And I’m sure this is a very trying time to lead a major university in terms of scheduling and trying to figure out how the future looks when the future looks so uncertain.Jay Ruderman (03:54):I know that you and your wife came down with COVID a few months back and I hope you’re better and that she’s better and that was the experience, I’m sure it was not a great experience for those of us who have not contracted it. Can you give us a few words of what that experience was like?Lawrence Bacow (04:10):Sure. We were among the very first to actually to get on in the Harvard community as luck would have it. We were quite fortunate, for us, we managed to avoid the severe respiratory problems that landed so many people in the hospital. And I would say for the two of us, it was like having a bad case of the flu. We were sick for about 10 days with 102-103 fever, cough.Lawrence Bacow (04:32):I had severe muscle aches, Adele avoided that. We both had chills and extreme lethargy. And after the fever broke and after about 10 days, we started feeling much better, although it took us another good 10 days to regain our strength. It took a lot out of us.Jay Ruderman (04:48):I’m glad you’re better. As a Massachusetts resident, I know things are getting a little bit better here. The state has been very strict in rolling out the recovery plan. And other places in the world and in the United States are having a much more difficult time.Jay Ruderman (05:03):Just wondering, Massachusetts has lost approximately 8,000 people and other countries have kept the death rate much lower. Any feelings about why that happened here in the Northeast, as opposed to let’s say a country like Israel that has had less than 400 deaths with a similar population size?Lawrence Bacow (05:23):Yeah, I think that the United States collectively, we were slow to recognize this threat. We were even slower to act on it. I think candidly, we received mixed signals from our government in terms of how seriously to take this. We continue to receive mixed signals from the government in terms of people maintaining social distancing, wearing masks.Lawrence Bacow (05:45):And I think all of this has contributed to a spread of the virus and unfortunately to a large number, not just a large number of cases, but a larger number of fatalities and perhaps might’ve been case if we had acted faster, more decisively and without the kind of mixed messages that continue to be sent.Jay Ruderman (06:04):You had mentioned that many students at Harvard are learning online. And I just wanted to talk to you a little bit about the future of education in higher education and education in general.Jay Ruderman (06:15):Do you think classroom learning is necessary or do you think that the future for students will be online learning?Lawrence Bacow (06:22):So I think that online learning is here to stay. I don’t think it’s going to go away. I think it will only get better over time. We’re still learning how to teach online in ways that capitalize on the opportunities that are made available through online education. But I also think that there are certain subjects that are really hard to teach online. And that, again, this experience of having students be separated from their teachers and vice versa. And students separated from each other has been one of the reasons that students are so desperate to get back and why we want them back is we’ve all come to appreciate that some activities just can’t be replicated completely or fully online.Lawrence Bacow (06:59):I often say that our students learn as much from each other as they’ll learn from us. And I think if you or I or any of your listeners were to reflect on their own college experiences for those who are fortunate enough to go to college and ask themselves the following question, if you think about what’s the most amazing experience you had in college for most of us, it’s not actually something that happened in the classroom. It’s something that happened outside of the classroom.Lawrence Bacow (07:24):It may have been a casual conversation with a faculty member that wound up changing our lives. That was certainly the case for me. It may have been a conversation that occurred late at night after students had finished their study, or it may have occurred on a playing field or the student activity, or whatever. So I could go on about this. I do think online education will evolve. I think it will get better, but I don’t think it will ever truly replace in person face-to-face education for many, many people.Jay Ruderman (07:53):I’m sure you’ve done some studying about the future of sports at the university. I mean, college sports is a big part of the college experience and I know at Harvard there are some excellent teams. So I don’t know what that looks like going into the coming academic year.Lawrence Bacow (08:09):We’re not quite certain, either. I will just tell you that it’s at the moment certain. It’s difficult to imagine with restrictions that the government has imposed already on travel, on large gatherings, that we could have intercollegiate sports that will look anything like what they would look in a normal year.Lawrence Bacow (08:28):In an athletic context, it’s difficult to imagine how certain sports can take place at all, wrestling for example. But until people can really travel and travel freely and not worry about infecting those that they encounter, it’s also hard to imagine that athletic teams would travel to play other teams as well.Jay Ruderman (08:48):I’m sure it’s going to be a very different year going forward in that aspect. Our society has, since the murder of George Floyd has dealt with an explosion of calls against racial injustice. How has the university dealt with racial injustice at the university and in society in general, what changes do you think will be made going forward?Lawrence Bacow (09:10):I think over the years, we’ve done a lot at Harvard, but it’s clear as is too I think for every institution in our society, we need to do more. This is just not where we want to be as a society. And it’s certainly not where Harvard wants to be. This is a time in which I think we need to act, but we also need to listen. There are many people who are suffering right now and suffering greatly. And those of us who have not shared that lived experience need to take the time to really listen and listen carefully, and understand in a deep way what they have gone through and what they continue to experience.Lawrence Bacow (09:42):And then we need to look inward, both as individuals and as institutions and ask ourselves, “What could we do in order to respond?” At Harvard, we’ve done a number of things. Some time ago, we set up a task force on diversity and inclusion and belonging several years ago that reported. And as a result of that, we’ve done strategic plans for every school at Harvard and what it can do to make Harvard a more diverse and inclusive and welcoming place for everyone.Lawrence Bacow (10:07):We recently appointed a new chief diversity and inclusion officer a year ago. I asked the Dean of the Radcliffe Institute, Tomiko Brown-Nagin, who was both a constitutional law scholar and a historian to lead an effort to examine Harvard’s ties and legacy with slavery and ask ourselves, “What are our responsibilities as a result of the institution that was founded in 1636?”Lawrence Bacow (10:30):It‘s certainly the case that we’ve had individuals who’ve donated to the university who had ties to slavery. Our individual schools, I think, changed the world through our teaching and through our scholarship. That’s how we influence the world. And so we’re looking at our curriculum, we’re looking at our research and asking where are there opportunities to do more?Lawrence Bacow (10:51):And we’ve also tried to ask ourselves, how can we do a better job educating every member of our community to not just cleanse themselves of any implicit bias, which they may have, but also what can we do affirmatively when we recognize racism, when we see it in our society, in our communities, how can we act affirmatively positively to counteract it?Announcer (11:19):You’re listening, to All Inclusive with Jay Ruderman. You can learn more view the show notes and transcripts at rudermanfoundation.org/allinclusive.Jay Ruderman (11:30):Please remember to subscribe, rate and review us wherever you are listening.Jay Ruderman (11:36):There have been several recent changes to the immigration laws and these changes will affect new students and faculty. For the upcoming class, international students make up 12% of those accepted. How do you see these changes impacting Harvard and the lives of international students, and how will this impact your faculty?Lawrence Bacow (11:59):Well, first of all, this is an issue which I feel quite strongly about it. Both of my parents were immigrants. They were both refugees to this country. And I often say, where else in the world can you go literally in one generation from off the boat with nothing to rise to become the president of Harvard? I think the experience of immigrants coming to this country is central to our experience.Lawrence Bacow (12:21):And so I’ve tried to be a strong voice in support of the notion that we should continue to welcome people who want to come to this country to seek a better life, to seek freedom, to seek opportunity, which is, I think, deeply rooted in the American experience. The issue is not just the 12 or 13% of our undergraduates who come from abroad. If you take a look at our graduate and professional schools, the number of international students enrolled is much higher and many of them, the Kennedy School, for example, 48% of their students come from abroad.Lawrence Bacow (12:52):Right now, the United States is not processing F-1 or student visas for new students seeking to come to this country. That’s because in many cases, our consular offices and our embassies are closed because of COVID. And one of the reasons why so many of our graduate and professional schools will be online in the fall is because international students will not be able to study at Harvard otherwise, simply because they cannot get here.Lawrence Bacow (13:16):Long-term, Harvard tries to recruit the very best students and the very best faculty and the very best staff from wherever we can find them. 35% of Harvard’s faculty were born someplace else. And so if we are to continue to recruit the very best people in the world to come work and study at Harvard, that it’s an imperative, they be able to gain access to Harvard. And this is true not just for our institution, it’s true for every college and university in the country.Lawrence Bacow (13:49):Every major university in this country, both public and private at this point as welcomed international students. And it’s one of the reasons that I think has strengthened these institutions. And ultimately it’s also strengthened the country. Because many of these young people when they finish their education, they want to stay here and work here.Jay Ruderman (14:08):Are you getting through your discussions with the government correspondence? Are you getting any type of response that they understand the dramatic effect this will have on higher education and research?Lawrence Bacow (14:21):It’s certainly the case that they do with respect to granting of student visas more broadly. I think things are a little bit more complicated when it comes to H-1B1 visas, which we use to recruit faculty and also industry uses to recruit people from abroad for jobs that they feel that they cannot fill domestically. And this is particularly acute in the STEM fields where 50% of the PhDs awarded in engineering and mathematics in the United States are awarded to foreign students. And many of these foreign students would like to stick around in our industry.Lawrence Bacow (14:56):We’d like to hire them as well, simply because they cannot fill many of these jobs without them. And I’ve been assured by those in government that they recognize the F-1 visa problem. They want to try and expedite the awarding of those visas. The challenge, which our government faces is that as long as the coronavirus continues to be a threat in many parts of the world, it’s difficult for them to staff the counsel offices sufficiently in order to be able to process these visas. But they’re looking to solve this problem.Jay Ruderman (15:23):I want to talk a little bit about mental health. Mental health is a growing issue in our society and maybe even more compounded by COVID-19. It sounds like Harvard has been more proactive in dealing with the issue of stigma on campus in order to allow people to feel more comfortable.Jay Ruderman (15:40):What is Harvard doing to help students who are dealing with issues concerning mental health?Lawrence Bacow (15:46):Well, we try and provide a healthy environment for all of our students. Every college and university in the United States, I think has seen an explosion and the demand for mental health services. There are plenty of students who have always had the ability to make it to college. Unfortunately, what happens to many of them once they get to our campuses is they no longer have their mothers and fathers there to say, “Have you taken your meds today?”Lawrence Bacow (16:09):They get exposed to other kinds of influences, which are not necessarily healthy for them and not it’s alcohol or recreational drugs. And so it’s an emotionally sort of fragile population, at least more so than it was perhaps 30, 40, 50 years ago. So we’ve tried to staff up given the particular stresses right now that come from the coronavirus, we’ve extended the allowed number of visits under our student health insurance plan to 52 outpatient visits a year.Lawrence Bacow (16:40):So basically you can see a therapist once a week on our plan. We’ve added staff under the current circumstances. We’re also doing a lot of telehealth. So mental health consults remotely, because students are removed from their therapist at this point. And we’ve tried to de-stigmatize asking for help as well. And that also accounts for some increase.Jay Ruderman (17:03):What were the factors that influenced your decision to pursue a career in academia and in administration of higher education?Lawrence Bacow (17:12):Jay, for most of us, I think our careers are often a series of fortuitous accidents and mine is no different. When I went to college, I thought I was going to be a lawyer and long story short, when I enrolled in graduate school at Harvard, I started out at the Kennedy School in a master’s program in public policy in my first year, and then went to Harvard law school the next year. And it was only in doing that, that I realized I was enjoying what I was doing at the Kennedy School, more than law school. I completed a PhD at the Kennedy School as well as my law degree. And I expected to go to Washington D.C. to work in the start of the Carter administration.Lawrence Bacow (17:45):And as luck would have it, I had an opportunity to fill in for a faculty member at MIT was going on leave for two years. And when I was trying to decide whether or not to go to D.C. or go back to MIT and teach for a couple of years, I went to one of my undergraduate advisors who said, “The government will be there when you’re ready to go work for it. It will always look good on your resume to spend a couple of years teaching at MIT.”Lawrence Bacow (18:07):So I did that in two years, turned into a 24-year career at MIT. So I did not set out to be in academic. It sort of just happened. And then the president of MIT asked me if I would come into the senior administration as one of MIT’s two most senior academic officers as chancellor of MIT. MIT had been very, very good to me. And so now the president asked, I said, yes. I mean, it was a chance to serve. If you have the number two job at a place like MIT, you get called for every presidential search in the country. I didn’t think I wanted to be a president.Lawrence Bacow (18:37):In a moment of weakness, I agreed to have a conversation with the search committee at Tufts. So the rest is history. I wound up becoming president of Tufts. I had a wonderful 10 years as president at Tufts. I stepped down expecting just to go back to doing some teaching and some writing. And then seven years later, I found myself as president of Harvard. So life happens.Jay Ruderman (18:57):So you’ve had the unique opportunity to have leadership positions at three excellent universities and very different institutions. Can you talk about maybe a significant memory that you might have from each of them that sort of guided you through your career?Lawrence Bacow (19:13):They are each very, very special places in my own mind and my own heart. So I really grew up at MIT. It’s where I really learned how to think analytically. Where I was challenged in ways that I never thought imaginable and where a couple faculty members really took me under their wing and changed my life. They saw that I was capable of doing things that I didn’t think I was capable of myself. I also made some lifelong friends who are my best friends today.Lawrence Bacow (19:41):And then of course, I had the opportunity to go back and teach at MIT and work there, and become part of the fabric of the place. MIT is an unusual place because of its focus. As we used to say at MIT, “We don’t do everything at MIT, but what we do, we try to do as well as anybody in the world.” I then came to Harvard for graduate school and Harvard and MIT, even though they’re two stops away on the red line are about as different as two institutions could possibly be. I sometimes joke when asked about the similarities and differences, I will say that organizationally and culturally they’re identical with assigned change, meaning they’re exact opposite.Lawrence Bacow (20:18):MIT’s very centralized. Harvard’s very decentralized. MIT is focused. Harvard’s very broad. As different as they are organizationally and culturally, these are two of the greatest universities in the world. And that to me says that excellence is path independent of the organization and culture. And I see that now as president of Harvard. This is an extraordinary place. What makes it so is that it’s extraordinary in so many different dimensions. What also makes it so is its history. I like point out that Harvard on the day the Declaration of Independence was signed was 140-years-old.Lawrence Bacow (20:53):To put that in context, that’s older than Stanford is today. So now this is an institution which literally helped to bring this country into being. George Washington commandeered the building during the Revolutionary war to quarter his troops. It just gives you a sense. John Adams when he was a student, John Quincy Adams when he was a student at Harvard, lived in the building where my office is and where students continue to live today on the 4th floor. So Harvard’s just steeped in history.Lawrence Bacow (21:21):And then there’s Tufts. Tufts was founded by the universalists and they were passionately committed to social justice. And it’s a place where service is deeply, deeply embedded in the DNA and the fabric of the institution. What I loved about Tufts is that it’s an exceedingly modest institution and it’s a place that is warm and embracing. It doesn’t have an attitude of any kind. It attracts students, faculty, and staff who just want to make the world a better place.Lawrence Bacow (21:53):Tufts educates more primary care physicians than all three of the other medical schools in Massachusetts combined, and Tufts hosts the only vet school in New England. So it’s a pretty unique and special place. So all three special. Don’t ask me to say which one I like the most, it’s like asking a parent, which one of your children do you love the most.Jay Ruderman (22:12):Of course. You touched on your parents and that they were both victims of persecution and came to the United States. How has that shaped your life and your world outlook?Lawrence Bacow (22:24):Look, we’re all children of our own circumstances. I think my parents’ experience affected me greatly. My mother didn’t talk a lot about her experience when I was growing up initially, she was the only member of her family to survive World War II and the only Jew from our town who survived it as well. She was liberated by the Russians. She was in Auschwitz when the war ended and spent most of the war in different stops before being transported East.Lawrence Bacow (22:51):I think her circumstances and now her journey and my father’s, and again, my father left before the war, but to escape the pogroms of Eastern Europe, he was born in Minsk, have left me with a deep appreciation for both the resilience of the human spirit, but also for how lucky and fortunate I have been. And I think that has given me a sense of responsibility to ensure that other students have the same kind of opportunity that I enjoyed, that so many of us have enjoyed and that we cannot take for granted.Lawrence Bacow (23:23):And one of the reasons why I’ve spent as much time as I have in Washington, D.C. and lobbying Congress on issues of immigration and issues of DACA, on issues of temporarily protected status for many workers that we have at Harvard is because I remember my mother telling the story about how difficult it was for her after having been liberated from the concentration camps to then just manage to secure entry into the United States.Lawrence Bacow (23:49):I’d like to think that there are other people who are also seeking a better life who have much to contribute to this country as I think my parents did. I’m not talking about contributing me, but just what they did in their own lifetimes. And so I work on behalf of all of those people. One of the many things which I love about this country is that it has always stood for opportunity.Lawrence Bacow (24:10):And so part of the reason I do what I do is because it gives me a chance to champion opportunity for others, whether or not it’s helping to identify the resources that allow a brilliant student from anywhere in this country or in the world to be able to come to Harvard, regardless of the ability of their parents to afford it. That’s one kind of opportunity or arguing on behalf of our dining workers who originally came from places in this world, which do not grant human rights and were granted temporary protected status to enter this country.Lawrence Bacow (24:44):And now they’ve made their home here. They’re productively employed here. They’re contributors to society. They pay their taxes and now they risk being sent back to a country that they don’t know anymore. And in some cases at great risk to themselves if they were to return home, because we’re going to potentially withdraw that status. So that’s why I do what I do. And I do it in part because of my parents.Jay Ruderman (25:09):Well, thank you for sharing that. I just wanted on a personal level, I know that you’re an avid runner. Where does that passion come from and what do you get out of running?Lawrence Bacow (25:17):Well, so one of the occupational hazards of being a university president is an expanding waistline. I sometimes joke that my real title is not university president, but university stomach. I eat and service to Harvard. At least that was the case before COVID-19 sent us all to our homes, but my days used to consist of breakfast, lunch, and dinner meetings. And then if I would show up at a faculty meeting for a department, they’d always have a big plate of cookies.Lawrence Bacow (25:42):So running in part, I run because it allows me to eat. It allows me to control my weight. But I also run because given my life, my days are scheduled from the moment I wake up and when I start doing email, till the time I closed my eyes and hit the pillow. It seems I’m almost always working. And running is one of the few opportunities I get to be alone with my thoughts.Lawrence Bacow (26:04):It’s when I do my best thinking. It is when I solve really hard problems and sort them out is when I’m on a long run. It’s when I compose my speeches when I write important communications to the community. So that’s what I get out of running. I also from time to time run with students and others, and I find that’s a healthy way to have a conversation with people in which after a while they stop looking at me like I’m the university president, right?Lawrence Bacow (26:31):Just become another sweaty runner. And I hear things that I wouldn’t hear otherwise. And for somebody who travels as much as I used to travel, this is the longest I think I’ve ever gone in my professional life without listening to somebody say to me, “Put your seat back and tray table in the upright position.” But given how much time I spent on the road, it’s a great way to see cities and I’ve run in every major city of the world.Jay Ruderman (26:52):We’re going through very momentous times, huge challenges on many different fronts. What one piece of advice would you give to a student regardless of the year, but coming into the fall semester of 2020. What advice would you impart?Lawrence Bacow (27:08):I would say to them that every generation gets challenged in one way or another. And the crises that we are dealing with in this moment in time are the challenge for their generation and that they need to be part of the solution. They need to think hard about what they can do to respond. So they’ll have students back on campus in the fall. It will be a different experience. One of the things which I will say to them is, “This experience is going to be shaped by what you make of it. If you take responsibility to wear your mask, wash your hands, to engage in social distancing, you are going to help keep this virus under control and to keep not only yourself healthy, but everybody around you healthy. You have the capacity to do that. We expect that from you.”Lawrence Bacow (27:52):I’ll say to them with respect to the moral crisis that would be dealing with right now that you referenced the issue, the search for racial justice. It’s in their hands to be better understanding of the inequities that exist in our society. To listen and understand the lived experience of others better than those who’ve come before them. And I will challenge them to do that as well. So I think each generation is challenged. Each generation, I think is often found a way to rise to this challenge. And I would say to them, “I hope that they will embrace this and try and rise to the occasion as well.”Lawrence Bacow (28:26):One of the things which keeps me optimistic is always being around young people. Young people have hope, I think for good reason. And when you see their hope combined with their idealism and their desire to repair the world, it can’t help but make you feel optimistic about the future.Jay Ruderman (28:44):Larry, I want to thank you for your time. You’ve been very generous. I wish you a lot of good health moving forward and a lot of success in what I know is a very challenging time for all of us.Lawrence Bacow (28:56):Thank you very much, Jay. It’s been a pleasure to have this conversation with you and I hope you and your family also stay safe and healthy.Jay Ruderman (29:02):Thank you.Announcer (29:07):All Inclusive is a production of the Ruderman Family Foundation. Our key mission is the full inclusion of people with disabilities in all aspects of society.Announcer (29:17):You can find All Inclusive on Apple Podcast, Google Play Spotify and Stitcher. To view the show notes, transcripts, or to learn more, go to rudermanfoundation.org/allinclusive. Have an idea for a podcast? Be sure to tweet @JayRuderman.

Jay Ruderman (0:00)Travel blogger Corey Lee was diagnosed with spinal muscular atrophy at the age of two, but that never stood in the way of his love for traveling. To date, he’s traveled to all seven continents in over 30 countries.Voiceover (0:21)All Inclusive, a podcast on inclusion, innovation and social justice with Jay Ruderman.Jay Ruderman (0:31)Hi, I’m Jay Ruderman, and welcome to All Inclusive with my guest, Corey Lee of the website, curb free. Corey Lee, welcome to All Inclusive and thank you for being with us today.Cory Lee (0:46)Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited to be here and chat with you. So, thank you.Jay Ruderman (0:52)Great. I look forward to talking to you and about you know who you are and your ambitions and how you started your travel blog curb free. So let me just start off by asking you, when you began your blog or website, and it started to take off and you began to do featured interviews in Forbes, and you were invited on television interviews, were you surprised by people’s experiences and reactions?Cory Lee (1:25)I mean, I was definitely surprised, especially just when things kind of first started taking off because I started the blog, really, as just, you know, a resource to hopefully, you know, show maybe a few other wheelchair users or people out there with disabilities, you know, like what was accessible in Australia or wherever they went that I’d previously gone. And so I mean, I hope to have a little bit of an audience but I never expected for it to, you know, grow to the scale that it is now and for it to receive what recognition and Forbes, and National Geographic numerous times and it’s really like mind blowing like almost when I sit down and like look at my media page of like, where all of them featured I was actually just in National Geographic this morning in a new article that came out so it’s always just like such a shock to me whenever I receive those emails and even like from your podcasts like that was an honor as well. So, thank you for that. And but Yeah, I would say it’s always definitely a good surprise.Jay Ruderman (2:30)Well, thank you and I would imagine that there are millions of wheelchair users around the world who like you have a desire to travel and have to do their research before they go out and travel to make sure that you know where they’re going is accessible. So just tell me about how all this started. How did you decide that this is what you wanted to do? You know, we know that it’s Americans, as opposed to the rest of the world don’t travel all that much. And only 42% of Americans actually have a passport. So just tell me how this idea came about for you.Cory Lee (3:14)Yeah, I was actually researching like accessibility for an upcoming trip to Australia back in 2013. And it was in December of 2013, when I was just like online searching for accessible things to do in Sydney and accessible taxis in Melbourne, Australia, things like that. And when I started typing that into Google, I noticed like almost immediately that there was a huge lack of information in regards to accessibility within Australia. And so, then it got me thinking, well, if there’s not really information on Australia, then is there information on England or on all these destinations in Europe or even on the US? And so, I searched numerous destinations and felt that it was pretty much the case all across the board, there really just wasn’t a lot of accessibility info out there, there were maybe only two or three other like, accessible travel blogs at the time. And so, I wanted to create a resource and a website where other wheelchair users could go to and really learn, you know, what, what they can do. And all of these destinations that I’ve been to at that time, I’d really only traveled in the United States and a couple places in Europe and I was going to Australia, like two months after I started the blog. But you know, I really didn’t have a ton of experience, but I knew that I had enough that I could hopefully do something with it and show others you know, what Australia would be like when I finally got there. So that’s really where the idea was born. And then after the trip to Australia, I started just documenting everything from that trip and all of my past trips and about a year later it finally started like gaining a good bit of traffic and kind of taking off.Jay Ruderman (5:06)So how often do you blog? How often are you talking about you know, traveling and, art, hotels and airlines and tourist sites? Are they contacting you and asking you to write about them?Cory Lee (5:20)Yeah. So, I would say about a year to two years after I started the blog, I started like, pitching press trips and trying to work with hotels and destinations. And now that the blog has grown and I have like followers on social media and things like that, places will reach out to me and want me to write about the accessibility of their destination or attraction or hotel in exchange for like a complimentary stay or something like that. So I have definitely been doing a lot of that in the past few years. But I usually blog at least once a week, I’ll publish a new blog post and sometimes twice, you know, I’ve got a lot of content to write about or, but otherwise, I mean, I am posting every day on my social media channels on Facebook, Instagram and trying to you know, keep spreading the word and getting the word out there that travel is possible for anyone.Jay Ruderman (6:20)And so, what is this time of COVID-19 been like for you when travel is very difficult. I mean, you know, road trips, there’s some planes flying but, you know, travel has really been curtailed. So, so what does this period been like for you?Cory Lee (6:39)Oh, I am ready for it to be over with no doubt about it.Jay Ruderman (6:44)Like all of us.Cory Lee (6:45)It’s definitely been a struggle in the travel industry as a whole. I mean, the New York Times they got rid of their travel section. I mean, a couple of magazines closed down and it’s definitely been a struggle across the whole industry. But for me, I’ve tried to, you know, just use this time at home to really crank out a lot of quality content and catch up on, you know, writing posts about past trips and staying really active on social media. So about two months ago, I launched a weekly Facebook Live series where I interviewed different destination representatives and PR people from that destination. And we talked about accessibility within that destination. And so that’s been a lot of fun. I actually did my last one, I think last week, so I did eight episodes of that. And it was a big success and so much fun. And I have actually taken two weekend trips though, within the past four months and so I went to the Great Smoky Mountains National Park in Tennessee.Jay Ruderman (7:56)It’s beautiful.Cory Lee (7:57)Yeah, it’s gorgeous and only like a few hours’ drive from where I live and found an accessible cabin there. And then a few weeks ago, I went to an alpaca farm in North Carolina, and stayed in an accessible cabin and got to hang out with alpacas all weekend. So, it hasn’t been all bad, but I’m definitely ready to get back on a plane.Jay Ruderman (8:15)So, let me ask you, hotels and airlines, travel companies, are they looking to attract people who are wheelchair users? Is that a part of the industry that they’re looking to attract?Cory Lee (8:34)I mean, some are, but I feel like most of the industry doesn’t really think about it. So, I mean, whenever I’m speaking at like a conference or giving a keynote or anything like that, always try to you know, really tell them why they should be focusing on this market. So, people with disabilities spend over $17 billion per year, just on travel. So, you know, we are out there, we want to spend the money. And I mean, a lot of places just don’t realize really how big the market is. But as soon as I say those numbers, I’m like speaking at a conference, everybody’s eyes in the audience, they widen and they’re like, Oh my god, like, they’re really out here spending money, like, why are we not trying to make our destination accessible and really, you know, like, become inclusive because they’re missing out on a huge market. And so that’s really like, my overall mission, I guess, is to just really put the information out there and teach, you know, destinations, why they should be inclusive.Jay Ruderman (9:41)Right. This is so true. I mean, money certainly gets people’s attention.Cory Lee (9:47)I hate that it does, but it definitely does the trick.Jay Ruderman (9:52)Have you had experiences? Well, basically, let me ask you when you’re traveling, are people usually accommodating? And are they friendly to you and accepting or, you know, have you had the opposite experience?Cory Lee (10:06)I mean, everyone that I’ve encountered pretty much has been really nice and accommodating. And I mean, I remember when I went to Iceland back in 2015, and I was in Reykjavik and a lot of the shops and restaurants are not accessible. So, they had to step to get inside but the chef actually came out from the kitchen and helped like lift my wheelchair up into the restaurant, like over a pretty big step. And some of the kitchen staff did so. And my wheelchair is not light I mean, it’s like 350 pounds. It’s a big, heavy duty powered wheelchair. And so that really meant a lot to me. And it’s like, little experiences like that, that I really love. And I think it shows you know, that there really are kind people all over the world if we’re just willing to look for them and seek out those experiences. So that’s been my overall experience, I guess. And I’ve been pretty fortunate in that regard.Jay Ruderman (11:08)And how often is it that you travel to someplace and they’re like, Oh, yeah, there are hotels accessible or airlines accessible, and you show up and it’s and it’s not.Cory Lee (11:17)That’s definitely happened a few times, mostly in my earlier travel days. So, the first time that I ever went to Europe, I called the hotel to see if they were accessible. And they said that they were and I was only like, 18, so I didn’t, I knew nothing. I was 18 years old. Um, so I called the hotel they said they were accessible. And then after a few more questions, it turned out that the only accessible feature they had was an elevator. And so, I wouldn’t have been able to, you know, get into the room or you know, even go to the bathroom. The doorway was too narrow and there was no rolling shower. So just because they had an elevator, they thought that meant they were accessible and they could accommodate me. So, I think you’ve really got to ask the right questions, you’ve got to think about, you know, what all accommodations do you need at home and your everyday life? And then how, you know, useful are they and how can you have those when you’re traveling. And so now whenever I call a hotel, I really like quiz them and grill them on their accessibility, request, photos of the accessible room and bathroom just to be 100% sure that it will work and since I’ve started doing that, I’ve had much more success.Jay Ruderman (12:40)So, I have some stories for you. There’s a friend of mine Yuval Wagner in Israel and he once was going away for a weekend. He’s also a wheelchair user and showed up at the guest house and he was told it was accessible but it wasn’t and he made them break down the doorframe in order for him to get in and to use the room, which is sort of radical, but you know, he wanted to stand up for his rights. You know, I also remember an example our foundation, the Ruderman Family Foundation has been very involved in advocacy. And we had a gentleman who was flying from Scotland, down to continental Europe, and he said, he called them up and said, “Listen, I have a massive wheelchair, and, you know, is your plane accessible because I’m going on my honeymoon.” And they assured him as it was accessible. He showed up, they wouldn’t take his wheelchair and he ended up suing we got involved in some of the advocacy. It happened eventually. But I hear this time and time again, that airlines, hotels, they say yes, we’re accessible. But they’re really not. They haven’t completely thought through every aspect of how someone with a wheelchair can enjoy the facility.Cory Lee (14:09)Yeah, I mean, for sure. And I think airlines, I mean, they have the longest way to go. I mean, that’s really the part of traveling that I dread more than anything is actually flying and getting on the plane because I have to be transferred physically, like lifted out of my wheelchair by the airport staff and I’ve been like nearly dropped several times. And you know, then once I’m actually on the plane, finally, I have to worry about my wheelchair getting damaged throughout the flight because I can’t stay in it. So, I always have to worry about that through the whole flight and it’s been damaged a couple times but luckily never anything like too major, but it’s always like a real concern. Whenever I’m traveling and so I mean, yeah, I think the airline industry definitely has a long, long way to go. And hopefully one day, you know, I’ll be able to just roll on a plane like I can, you know, an accessible taxi or a city bus that’s accessible and stay in my wheelchair and have a comfortable experience like everyone else. But until then I’ll just keep, you know, do what I got to do. But I heard that, you know, it’s worth it once I get to the destination and so if I could just suffer through the flight, it’s worth it when I get there.Jay Ruderman (15:29)So, and I would imagine that your wheelchair, you know, cost several thousands of dollars, so any damage can be extremely costly.Cory Lee (15:40)Yeah, my wheelchair is like $32,000 I think so when they damaged it, I mean, it’s a big deal. One time they damaged the joystick and just replacing that like, they paid for it, but I mean, it was well over $1,000 you know, just for the joystick, so which is not a big part of the wheelchair. I mean, it does enable me to drive but it’s a rather small part I should say.Jay Ruderman (16:07)And how do you deal with when you’re when you’re traveling to some, you know, place that’s extremely old, like, you know, parts of Europe or Israel, and the streets are really not, you know with the cobblestones and the stone streets. I mean, that must just be a further obstacle in order to getting around.Cory Lee (16:28)Yeah, some places are pretty brutal. I’m not gonna lie. So, the probably the worst cobblestone that I’ve experienced was in Tallinn, Estonia. And their cobblestone is massive and I mean, it’s pretty rough. I mean, I needed a chiropractor when I got back home I felt like but we usually try to travel with like a tour company that specializes in accessible travel whenever I’m visiting a destination and by doing that they use usually know more of like the accessible routes. So, when I was in Israel, I toured with a company called Israel for all. And they knew all of the accessible routes through the Old City. And we were able to, you know, tour Jerusalem and it really wasn’t very bumpy because they did know the right places to go to and the correct route. So, you know, always touring with a tour company that specializes in accessibility, you’re going to have a better experience overall.Jay Ruderman (17:31)And with these tour companies can people find out about them on your website?Cory Lee (17:35)Yeah, definitely. They’re all on my website with the different destinations and I mean, even Lonely Planet. I think they published an accessible travel resources book a couple years ago, and it lists out every tour company in the world that specializes in accessibility. So, it is a phenomenal resource and no matter where you want to go, you can find out you know if there is a tour company there for you.Jay Ruderman (18:03)So, I noticed that you travel a lot from the pictures that I’ve seen of your travels, you travel a lot with your mother. That must be a great experience. But can you just talk a little bit about, you know how that came about and does she travel with you on all your trips?Cory Lee (18:20)Yeah, so my mom does go with me a good bit. We, if I’m traveling internationally, she usually always goes with me. And she definitely has the travel bug just like I do. So, when I was younger, she was a schoolteacher. And we would really use the summer months to kind of explore domestically here in the US and we would go to places like, you know, Disney World or DC or New York City and places like that. And then when I turned 15, we started going on more international trips, and we would to the Bahamas and then eventually to Germany and Austria and England and places like that. And so, we’ve done definitely traveled a lot together over the years. And we really know you know, what each other likes, when we’re traveling, what kind of experiences we want, what kind of attractions we want to go to together. And so, it’s a really cool experience. And we’ve actually visited all seven continents together. So yeah, it’s been a pretty remarkable journey. But if it is more of just, you know, a trip here in the States or an easier one, then I’ll get like a friend or a care attendant to go with me on some of those so, and my mom does work a full-time job. So, it really depends a lot also on if she can, you know, get off work for those trips.Jay Ruderman (19:38)It sounds like you, you have a really special relationship with her which is, you know, super nice. And is this your, is this your profession now? I mean, your website, your blog, is this what is what you’re doing, you know, for your contribution to the world.Cory Lee (19:58)Yeah, it is my full-time job. So, yeah, it’s probably way more than 40 hours a week, actually. But yeah, it’s the full-time gig.Voiceover (20:11)You’re listening to All Inclusive with Jay Ruderman. You can learn more, view the show notes and transcripts at Rudermanfoundation.org/all inclusive.Jay Ruderman (20:22)Please remember to subscribe, rate and review us wherever you listen to.Jay Ruderman (20:28)So, I’m going to ask you a tough question. I don’t know if you’re going to be able to narrow it down. But what are some of the favorite destinations that you visited in your travel?Cory Lee (20:40)I should have a good answer to this by now. But I mean, it’s it changes almost every week. I feel like I mean it, there are so many amazing destinations. But if I had to pick three, I would say number one that just like immediately comes to mind is Morocco. I went there two years ago for the first time, and I really wasn’t expecting a whole lot like I didn’t really know anything about Morocco before I went there. And then I went and we went to like Fez and Casa Blanca and Merrakech, and went out into the Sahara Desert, and I rode a camel. And it was just like, experience after experience that I never imagined that I would have in Morocco. And it was probably my favorite trip of all time. I mean, it’s so incredible and vastly underrated, I think. And then I would also say, probably India, I went to India in 2018, December of 2018. And it was wild. I mean, India is a wild country to visit. It’s definitely sensory overload. It’s loud, it’s smelly, it’s just a wild environment to be in, but I mean, it really blew my mind and it’s unlike any other travel experience I’ve ever had. I mean, it is remarkable. We were able to get to the Taj Mahal and then to Shahapur and to Delhi, and it’s just an amazing country with some of the nicest people that you’ll ever meet. And then if you’re going to make me pick one more, a third, I would say, probably like Finland. I really love like Finland, Sweden, the whole Scandinavian region of Europe. I mean, it’s one of the most accessible places in the world, I think. So, in Finland, they actually have over 300 wheelchair accessible taxis. And I was super surprised about that when I was in Helsinki. And I mean, most American cities don’t even have that many. So, the fact that you know, Helsinki could get it together and get that many it just is really an amazing place to visit.Jay Ruderman (22:52)But well, I’ve been to Helsinki and it’s an amazing city, Morocco and India are on my list of places that are really like to visit? Let’s talk about your book. You wrote a children’s book. “Let’s Explore with Cor Cor“. How did this come about? Why did you decide to write children’s book and what was the experience like? And how’s the book done?Cory Lee (23:16)Yeah, I’m super excited about the book. And about three years ago, is when we started on the book. So, it’s been a long process of, you know, finding the right illustrator to do it, and, you know, getting the words down and making it come to reality. But growing up, you know, I never really saw another character in a book or in television that used a powered wheelchair like I did, and I wanted to create, you know, just something for today’s children with disabilities, so that they can hopefully see themselves you know, represented and feel included. And so, I hope that you know, when they say “Let’s Explore with the Cor Cor“, that you know, they see the themselves and know that you know, if Cor Cor can go to all these destinations and they can go too. And every destination in the book is one that I’ve actually been to myself. So, they are all accessible places to visit. It’s totally possible for anyone in a wheelchair to go there. And I can’t wait for everyone to check it out.Jay Ruderman (24:21)Yeah, I mean, I think authentic representation is so, so important. You know, we’ve been involved as a foundation for the past six years in, in authentic representation entertainment. There’s been some progress, but it is such an empowering tool. And again, you talk about money, there’s so much money for the entertainment industry to be made. Because we’ve conducted white papers and studies that show that people really want to see authentic representation in entertainment. So, I think you tapped into something there.Cory Lee (25:03)Yeah, the response so far. I mean, the book actually comes out on July 26, which is the anniversary of the Americans with Disabilities Act and the response so far has just been incredible. And I hope that you know, we would sell some copies but I never expected for it to you know, be this many so it’s really been awesome so far and I can’t wait to see how much more it grows over the next month or so.Jay Ruderman (25:29)Great gratulations on that.So, you’ve been to seven continents which is completely amazing. Antarctica is a place that most people have not visited. So, can you talk a little bit about you know, traveling I assume you left from Argentina you know, which is usually the jump off point. But you know, what was that like? Were the seas really rough. Did you actually get to you know, go on to the continent?Cory Lee (26:02)Yes. So, I went to Antarctica this past February. It was right before the pandemic and I really went at the perfect time. So luckily, I got in one last trip, a big trip. And we cruised with Holland America. And so, since our ship was a bigger cruise ship, we were not able to actually go on to land. But I contacted like before that like several years ago, all of the other like smaller cruise lines like cork expeditions and National Geographic. Their smaller cruise ships and none of their cruise ships were accessible. So really, Holland America was the only accessible option with an elevator on the ship and accessible rooms. And so, I knew that you know, if I wanted to visit Antarctica, and that was really my big goal before I hit 30 years old was to visit all seven continents. They mean I just had to do what I had to do and go With Holland America, even though it meant that I couldn’t, you know, get off the ship and go explore on land. But it really, you know, was so much more than I ever expected it to be. We saw whales every day, we saw hundreds of penguins every single day, and seals and I mean, icebergs that were like bigger than our cruise ship almost. So, Antarctica was absolutely amazing. And I just, it’s such a different experience. And it feels like you’re on another planet when you’re seeing icebergs that are that big and the whales breaching out of the water. So everyone needs to do it, you know, and sometimes, I mean, that trip really taught me that, you know, travel isn’t always going to be, you know, like you maybe want it to be or like you expect it to be so even though I couldn’t go on land, it still managed to blow me away. So, I think if you’re just you know, open to the public experience and willing to put yourself out there and try it out then it can really surprise you.Jay Ruderman (28:06)Sounds amazing. I had the opportunity to travel to Alaska a few summers ago and that was amazing but it sounds like Antartica is like Alaska on steroids.Cory Lee (28:19)A there’s no Drake Passage in Alaska. So, if you want to really experience the Drake Passage, the Drake shake you got to go to Antartica.Jay Ruderman (28:29)Right. So, tell me on your website you have dedicated page to some crazy experiences you’ve had with traveling. You mentioned being attacked by a hippo, your chair battery exploding, being pickpocketedCory Lee (29:00)Yeah, I mean, the craziest travel experience was by far the hippo incident. So a few years ago, I was in South Africa. And we went to meet this hippo named Jessica and she was actually abandoned by her hippo family like a young age and some humans found her like in a river bank, and they brought her in their house and raised her and like she has a bed in their house and they widen the doorways so that she can come inside the house now that she’s fully grown. And so supposedly she was really friendly, they told us beforehand, but when I went to meet her, they handed me a potato to feed her. And I was kind of having some trouble actually reaching over far enough to get down to feed her because she was in the water. And only her head was sticking up out of the water. And I was having trouble reaching over that far and she got really agitated that it was taking so long for me to give her this potato so she decided to launch up out of the water, and she grabbed the side of my wheelchair with her teeth and started pulling me into the water. And as like, right before I became her lunch for the day, her human dad came over and like started yelling at her to stop and trying to you know, pull me back. And luckily, she stopped right before I went in the water and was eaten. And so, I’m here today to tell the story. So, it definitely made for a good blog post. But it was a terrifying experience.Jay Ruderman (30:33)Yeah, well, I’m glad you’re here and safe that must have been terrifying because they say that in Africa, the most dangerous animal is the hippo. That more people are killed by hippos than any other animal in Africa.Cory Lee (30:50)Yeah, I read that before going and I was like a hippo like they look so cute and cuddly like they couldn’t hurt anyone. And then, of course, I experienced that.Jay Ruderman (31:01)So, I’m sure you’ve faced your fair share of diversity in traveling and can you talk about? You know, I know you talked that most people are generally very welcoming and helpful, but does the view of disability change from country to country? And, you know, have you faced blatant discrimination, you know, in places that you’ve gone?Cory Lee (31:30)I mean, it absolutely changes from country to country. I mean, when I was in India, for example, we were talking about India a little while ago, but when I was there, every time that I would unload out of the wheelchair accessible van, people would like flock over to watch me go down the ramp and get out of the vehicle because they had never even seen a powered wheelchair before. And I mean, at first it was like, like, just I guess little annoying, like, I hate to use that word, but I really just didn’t know what to make of it because I’ve never experienced that before. But then I got to talking to the people and like really understood, you know, they were only doing that, because they didn’t know what a power wheelchair was, they didn’t even know that it existed. And they some of them actually said that they had friends and family back home that needed a wheelchair and they had to make a homemade wheelchair for them to use. And so, I mean, something like a power wheelchair, could change their life and enable them to finally go out of the house and, you know, have a normal almost normal life. And so, just after, you know, I got to talking to them and really learned why. I mean, it really became evident, you know, I guess but they were still wanting to take selfies and everything but they were really just fascinated and cool with it. But as far as like experiencing blatant discrimination I mean, I luckily, I don’t think I’ve ever had like a bad experience in a country. I mean, aside from like airlines, I mean, I guess the flying issue sometimes in the airports, they will, you know, like, not want to the help me transfer out of the plane depending on the country or they’ll kind of put up a little fight about the transferring off the plane and getting on the plane and what to do with the wheelchair during the flight and stuff like that. So that’s really where I’ve experienced the most discrimination, I guess.Jay Ruderman (33:32)Do you find that experience humiliating, you know, to rely on others and, for them, maybe not at all times to treat you with the respect that you deserve?Cory Lee (33:46)Yeah, I mean, sometimes it can be humiliating, I mean, especially when I was just starting out traveling, I mean, transferring on the plane and it is quite a sight. So, it’s like a three person job to get from my wheelchair to the plane seat, and I’m usually loaded first. So, you know, none of the passengers have to say that process. But I mean, every now and then, like an airline will load the other passengers first and then load me just like during the middle of it all. And so, then people do have to see every step that goes into it. And so, when that used to happen, I would get like really ashamed about it and like, just be nervous about it, and you know, hate it. But then I started thinking like, you know, this is really a good opportunity for them to see what it takes for someone in a wheelchair to travel. And so I started trying to change my mindset to you know, teach others and show them what all goes into the process because maybe they’ve never seen that happen before and now they finally get the chance to and so now I’ll even like sometimes want to be last, just so that everyone else on the plane can see what goes into it and hopefully that’ll inspire them to you know, fight for change when the time comes and, you know, make flying more accessible, hopefully.Jay Ruderman (35:08)Right. And once you’re in the seats, even on long haul flights, you’re there is no moving around for you in the plane.Cory Lee (35:17)I’m done. There’s no going to the bathroom. I flew 17 hours nonstop from Atlanta to Johannesburg, South Africa. And we go and I mean, there was no going to the bathroom. There was no getting up. None of that. So usually about two days before I fly, I’ll start like dehydrating myself and like stop eating like any foods that I think might would upset my stomach. So, I mean, there’s a whole process and I’ve luckily like mastered the art of it within the past few years and I know like what else can I do now before flying to you know, not need to go to the restroom on the flight or how can I handle it, but sometimes if it’s a long flight, it’s definitely rough and I’m ready to, like, get there and just be done with it. But throughout the longer flights, I’m trying to just remind myself why I’m going to that destination and what all amazing things will be there. And I just keep telling myself that.Jay Ruderman (36:24)So, you know, one of the I think the equalizing factors is that people in America and perhaps around the world react to injustice. So everyone has a camera, on a plane or in any situation, and I think that, you know, if you ever have, you know, a rough time, I think videotaping it and releasing that, you know, puts a lot of pressure on getting airlines and other industries to really, you know, improve their disservices.Cory Lee (36:57)Yeah, I’ve done that a couple times. And one of my videos from a few years ago got like 500,000 views. And the airline was not happy,it regarded one of their employees and they were not happy at all. So it was a debacle that you know, and it inspired people to be vocal and, you know, speak up. So I’m happy that it happened, I guess.Jay Ruderman (37:25)Sure. You travel with many, I mean, I’ve seen you in different chairs. I’ve seen you in chairs that that can float. I’ve seen you in chairs that have different configurations where you could be on the sand or your jetskiing are you carrying different wheelchairs with you when you travel? Or are you accessing them wherever you end up.Cory Lee (37:49)I only travel with my everyday powered wheelchair. And then when I get to the destination, I’ll frequently rent like a beach wheelchair. Or, you know, the sand chair, the water chair, any other any of those like specialty chairs, I’ll just rent when I actually get to the destination because it would be difficult to carry that much equipment with me through the airport and I already travel with a lot so I really cut out another bag.Jay Ruderman (38:23)So, you are now on your website, you do a bunch of interviews with people who are also wheelchair users. How did that start? What’s the goal? What are you trying to accomplish with those interviews?Cory Lee (38:35)Yeah, I started doing my Wheelie inspiring interview series. Like right after I started my blog because I knew that I didn’t want my blog to just be my voice even though you know, it is named after me. It is Curb Free with Cory Lee and it is like the main voice but I want to you know more people to really share their stories. Because I don’t have the same experiences, as someone in a manual wheelchair does, for example, or someone with cerebral palsy or, you know, whatever other disabilities there are out there that require someone to use a wheelchair. We all have different travel experiences. And I really want my readers and followers to get to know all of our experiences, not just mine. And so that’s kind of where the idea for my interview series was born. And I have a couple more in the works right now. So hopefully, we’ll have some more up very soon.Jay Ruderman (39:36)Great. Congratulations on that. You know, we’re approaching very, very soon. This week, the 30th anniversary of the Americans with Disabilities Act, which in America is the is the landmark civil rights legislation for people with disabilities. How, has the ADA affected you and what do you think needs improvement.Cory Lee (40:02)Yeah, I was born in the year 1990, which is actually when the ADA was passed. So, I was kind of born at the perfect time, I guess only a few months before the ADA came into effect. And so it’s had drastic improvements on the life I mean, buildings being accessible and me being able to, you know, go inside and then even traveling, I mean, even internationally, just airlines do have to, you know, have staff there to help me on the plane. I mean, some laws are in place, even though there could be more but, I mean, the ADA has helped me immensely and I’m forever thankful for it. But there are definitely some areas where it could improve. So, I think you know, and I guess it just needs a bit of an update, just I mean, there’s so many levels of accessibility. And the word accessible means something different to every person and so how can we be more inclusive for everyone, instead of just meeting the minimum, like accessibility threshold. And so there are some areas where it can improve I guess, and even with like school discrimination I wrote about this yesterday on my Facebook and Instagram pages about some of the discrimination that I experienced in school with my teachers not wanting to get like the bus with the lift on it to take me on field trips, and just little things like that. So, there are definitely things to improve with it, but I mean, it has changed my life and I’m grateful for it.Jay Ruderman (41:44)And around the world, I know most countries have signed on to the convention for the rights of people with disabilities. Do you see things a little bit better in other countries or a little bit worse or does it depend on where you are?Cory Lee (42:02)In some countries, I think it is better. So, in Australia and Sydney, I think it is probably the most accessible city in the world. Every ferry is accessible. There are accessible buses, accessible taxis. I mean, it was so easy for me to get around the City of Sydney, and Melbourne also in Australia. So, I’ve really never experienced such great accessibility and it allowed me to be, you know, more independent and have a better overall experience. But then I go to places you know, like, I like Austria, and it’s like in Salzburg, Austria, it was difficult to get a wheelchair accessible taxis so and then a lot of places in Europe it’s really great and even better than some places in the US so I guess it really just overall depends on the destination or even the city because some Americans Cities are better than others. For sure. So, it really depends on the destination.Jay Ruderman (43:06)So Cory, where after COVID-19, in there’s a vaccine. What’s the first place you want to travel to?Cory Lee (43:15)Oh, that’s a tough question. I would say New Zealand. I was supposed to visit New Zealand this past April. And it unfortunately got canceled, of course, and so I can’t wait to finally actually get there. And then I’m supposed to be going to the Paralympics in Tokyo next month also, and that’s been canceled. So, I would say New Zealand and Tokyo, Japan are my top two.Jay Ruderman (43:41)Good choices.Cory Lee (43:43)Yeah, I can’t wait.Jay Ruderman (43:44)Cory. It’s been such a pleasure having you as a guest on All Inclusive, you lead a really interesting life. And I think you provide, you know, a service that helps so many millions of people around the world. So, I want to wish you a lot of luck. I’m sure we’ll be hearing a lot more about you in the future. And thank you so much for joining us today.Cory Lee (44:08)Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It was a lot of fun, and I really appreciate it. Thank you.Jay Ruderman (44:13)Thank you be well.Cory Lee (44:14)All right. Yeah, you too. Thanks.Voiceover (44:20)All Inclusive is a production of the Ruderman Family Foundation. Our key mission is the full inclusion of people with disabilities in all aspects of society. You can find All Inclusive on Apple podcast, Google Play, Spotify and Stitcher. To view the show notes, transcripts or to learn more, go to Rudermanfoundation.org/all inclusive. Have an idea for a podcast? Be sure to tweet @jayruderman.

Jay Ruderman (00:05):Philanthropy has been the ability to make a huge change for the better in society. The Ford Foundation is one of the largest philanthropy organizations in the world. One that is also made one of the greatest impacts in social justice.Speaker 3 (00:27):All Inclusive, a podcast on inclusion, innovation, and social justice with Jay Ruderman.Jay Ruderman (00:39):Hi, I’m Jay Ruderman and this is All Inclusive. Our guest today is the president of the Ford Foundation and a very outspoken advocate for social justice, Darren Walker. Darren, thank you for joining us today.Darren Walker (00:52):Thank you, Jay, for this wonderful invitation.Jay Ruderman (00:54):How are you doing?Darren Walker (00:56):I am doing very well, all things considered.Jay Ruderman (01:00):Great. I heard an interview that you recently did on CNN, where you talk about the privilege that most white people in the country have and that is a barrier to the advancement of African American people to the executive levels of businesses and organizations. Can you talk about the change we would see in America with more African American people in executive positions and on the boards of major American companies?Darren Walker (01:26):I think we would see a reflection of America and the talent that is distributed across America within the highest ranks of corporate America, which we do not see today.Darren Walker (01:39):And I think the effect of that would be a more impactful, profitable, and inclusive corporate America, which unfortunately we have not yet achieved.Jay Ruderman (01:52):And do you feel that that is because of systematic racism in corporate America, that we’ve not seen the advancement of more qualified African-American candidates into the C office or onto boards of organizations?Darren Walker (02:08):I certainly believe, Jay, that we have an unfortunate and regrettable history in our country. As someone who loves America and knows that my own personal journey would only be possible in a country like America, I still understand that America has not fulfilled its responsibilities and obligations to all of its citizens, most prominently, the indigenous Americans, the natives, and the enslaved Americans, the enslaved Africans. The legacy of that history remains with us today in our society, and therefore it remains as a part of our history in our corporate community and in the cultures of our companies.Jay Ruderman (02:57):And since you came out and very strongly took a leadership position and made that statement, have you heard back from corporate America, are they open to addressing the change within their culture that is obviously being called for very loudly in America, on the streets?Darren Walker (03:15):Jay, I have been incredibly inspired by the conversations I’ve had with CEOs. I have spoken to at least 20 fortune 200 CEOs in the last month, and everyone is deeply troubled by what they saw in Minneapolis. I think what is most impactful with this group of leaders is what they are hearing from their African American employees, and customers, and suppliers that the personal stories and narratives of things that are a part of their everyday life, that their white colleagues don’t have to experience and the even troubling experiences in the workplace. Jay, when you look at the Business Roundtable, which is traditionally not become involved in major social issues under Doug McMillan’s leadership, the organization has established a set of working groups who are looking at everything from policing and the justice system, to education and employment and access to healthcare. This is a pretty bold step by the BRT and I hope that it’s followed on with concrete action.Jay Ruderman (04:34):You’re running the Ford Foundation, which is one of the most prestigious foundations in the world. And people have the utmost respect for you, but life in general, walking through your city, is racism part of what you experience in life?Darren Walker (04:49):Well, I don’t think that I live the life of an average African-American man in America. I live with a great amount of privilege. I live in a city that is progressive. So a Black gay man, I do not feel that it is been an impairment, generally, to my advancement, to be president of the Ford Foundation. I certainly have experienced inadvertently or with intent racism. I have economic security, I have a vast network, and so what I worry about is what is the experience of the average Black man living in the Bronx or in Brooklyn, who isn’t the president of the Ford Foundation, but who has to navigate systems that can feel like walls. And so that’s what I worry aboutJay Ruderman (05:44):The murder of George Floyd, which was caught on video and obviously traumatized the country. We’ve seen protests and the national discussion has changed in this country. The injustices touched a deep cord in America, but do you feel that these protests, which were massive, can lead to more racial equality in our country?Darren Walker (06:06):I do believe that the potential for this moment in American history, Jay, is transformational. And what is so inspiring and gives me hope is, as you point out, the movement is far bigger than a onetime march on the Mall. As we saw in the ’60s, I am seeing and hearing about in small town America, from Montana to Maine organizations coming together to support the idea of Black Lives Matter. And I believe that for the first time in my lifetime, I can imagine true genuine reconciliation because we are having a reckoning now. And I think we have to move from reckoning to reconciliation, because what I don’t want is for this to become about recrimination, we need to agree and I think you’re framing this as a nation that is experiencing trauma and heartbreak and grief over what Americans saw and especially white Americans saw, because I believe that for many white Americans, racism remained deniable.Darren Walker (07:23):There was always the benefit of the doubt given, there was always the idea that well there’s another side to this story, and I think the murder of George Floyd was so craven and cruel and deprived him of any level of dignity, that Americans were just appalled. And so I think deniability is no longer an option. And with that comes an opportunity for a collective acknowledgement, that it is real and therefore, there needs to be concrete steps taken to reconcile and to come together as a nation to heal from this horrific history.Jay Ruderman (08:09):I’m a little bit concerned, and I don’t know how you feel, that a situation like this in a political year, instead of everyone saying there’s an injustice and we all need to react and we need to understand and dive deep and make real changes in American society, that there is a politicalization of the issue. And I see that as destructive.Darren Walker (08:30):I would agree with you that it is being politicized by some, and it is destructive. We have always, in America, had a strain of racism, of antisemitism that has been with our nation from its founding. And I don’t think we will ever be able to fully rid our nation of this phenomenon. But I do believe that most Americans are people who deeply believe in the ideas of our founding documents. And while we may have individual identities, there is an identity that binds our future. And that is that we are Americans and we have a responsibility to each other to ensure that those ideals are actually fulfilled and, and are fully a part of our culture. And the idea of who we are.Jay Ruderman (09:27):Darren, I’m wondering if you could talk a little bit about the importance of the recent Supreme Court ruling that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 also applies to discrimination based on sexual orientation, gender identity. It’s a recent decision, but I’m sure you’ve looked into it. And can you just talk about the impact of that is having on the United States?Darren Walker (09:46):Well, I think it is a landmark case, every legal scholar and civil libertarian argues that it is a landmark case, that the fact that we, until this case, lived in a nation where if you were gay, you could be fired from your job for being gay. And that is no longer a part of our society is a great thing. And I think for some people, it feels like a crossing the finish line around the policy change that’s that has been needed to ensure the full rights and engagement and participation of LGBTQ Americans in our society, I think it’s a phenomenal advance, and I think the marriage equality policy, the employment policy now as part of, and beyond not just employment, but having it included in the interpretation of the ’64 Civil Rights Act is a huge win for all Americans, not just LGBTQ Americans. So I’m very excited about the prospects that we can live in a society where you can love who you want, marry, and enjoy the rights that all other citizens enjoy under our laws and Constitution.Jay Ruderman (11:20):It’s amazing how much America has changed from the time that you and I grew up regarding public attitudes towards people who are LBGTQ and how much more accepted that community is as part of our society, which is a major advancement. And I just reflect on that often about how quickly society can change when activism works with government to really change our society.Darren Walker (11:49):Absolutely, and make no mistake about it, this was an effort that required grassroots organizing by activists. It required big investments in what I called narrative change. The media is a primary way in which we understand who we are. And when LGBTQ Americans are represented in the media as “normal” and the fact that we began to see narratives of LGBTQ people who were our neighbors, our friends, and even our children and grandchildren, it started to change. And as we saw in the media characters like Ellen, someone who was beloved as the girl next door for her to say, “Mom and Dad I’m gay,” there was no way you could not accept her in her fullness and marvel at her courage and doing that. And that was sometime ago, Jay, as you remember, but it had a huge impact and other media like that had a huge impact.Darren Walker (13:03):And of course, today we have seen, as you say when you and I were growing up the way gays were depicted would no longer be tolerated in the media today. And that’s how social change works over time, because ultimately it’s the hearts and minds that change how people think about what they want their society to be. And it’s through reaching hearts and minds that we evolve. We evolve in our thinking from, “Oh, this person is Black and I’m white and there must be something wrong, or lower status because he’s Black.” We evolve our thinking over time because we progress as a society. And we have people who are enlightened thinkers who help us through media, through what we learn in college and the continuing learning that we experience, or just in our own personal interactions.Speaker 3 (14:01):You’re listening to All Inclusive with Jay Ruderman, you can learn more view the show notes and transcripts at rudermanfoundation.org/allinclusive.Jay Ruderman (14:15):Please remember to subscribe, rate, and review us wherever you are listening.Jay Ruderman (14:22):During the pandemic that we’re all living through, there’s been much research done with regards to COVID-19 that shows that African American communities and other minority communities have been affected at a much higher rate than the white community. And I believe this further demonstrates racial inequalities in America. What do you believe is the cause of this and how do we change our healthcare system to address such large discrepancies?Darren Walker (14:49):Well, I certainly believe that what data shows is disparities and health outcome, the outcomes of individual Americans and Black and LatinX, especially is rooted in our history of exclusion, lack of access, and poverty. I think the challenge for the country is to understand how the social determinants of health are informed by beings like geography. We know that your zip code is the primary indicator of your health status, your access to decent healthcare, education, jobs, et cetera.Darren Walker (15:33):And so I believe we are going to have to grapple with that issue. I think your question about healthcare writ large is one of the great policy issues of our day. And I believe we are going to have to craft some kind of healthcare scheme in America that makes it possible for some Americans to have access to a single payer system that is not required or compulsory, but that we are going to have to grapple with the millions of Americans who do not have access to healthcare. I just remember, Jay, growing up and visiting my cousins in rural Louisiana and just the diets that we had were so absolutely terrible. I remember once being at my great aunt’s house and the kids we’d all drink because we were poor and we had bologna, we had a sandwich and bologna and bread, and then we would drink water with sugar in it.Darren Walker (16:43):So this was a precursor to Kool-Aid, but without the cost of Kool-Aid, it just had this sugar. And I remember thinking at the time, “you know this tastes really good,” but what did I know I was just a kid? But we all ate like that are our habits. And I remember walking around this rural community and there were a lot of dirt roads and people sitting on shotgun houses or whatever, but the number of people who had limbs that had been amputated was just shocking. It was just a disease, diabetes, that afflicted African-Americans for a very long time. And I just think that we have never fully grappled with the legacy of racism specifically as it relates to our healthcare huge issue. And I think Jay, this is, you and I are both capitalists. This is one of the ways in which capitalism has failed.Darren Walker (17:37):I remember being in Harlem, in the ’90s, working there doing community development and a community that had a population larger than the city of Atlanta, without any access to healthy foods, there was no supermarket, there was no farmer’s market or any such thing. And the number of conversations we had with supermarket chains, who simply were unwilling to come to the “inner city”, there was data, but there was always an excuse. Why not? Because the view was, “Well, they’re going to burn the store down at some point,” or, “We’re going to have huge amounts of shrinkage.” There was just all kinds of reasons. None of which turned out to be true in fact, the Pathmark in Harlem was one of the most successful in its chain. And even in 2020 and America, we have food deserts.Jay Ruderman (18:34):So Darren, you are not just running a major philanthropic organization, but you’re also an advocate and you don’t shy away from speaking out. We’re seeing more and more philanthropists who believe that it’s not enough just to be donating to worthy causes, but they’re also involved as advocates. What do you attribute this trend to?Darren Walker (18:57):I, in my own way, my own journey on this has been, as you know, I wrote a book called from Generosity to Justice, which chronicles the legacy of philanthropy in the United States in the 20th century, actually beginning in 1889 with Andrew Carnegie’s seminole essay, The Gospel of Wealth, where he talked about charity and generosity and Carnegie accepted inequality and the kinds of injustice that we are troubled by today, he accepted those as simply the natural phenomenon that happen and the focus on inequality was not his interest. His interest was saying, ‘How do we give away this money in a way that ameliorates, that helps our fellow citizens and immigrants and et cetera?” In 1968, Martin Luther King said the following, “Philanthropy is commendable, but it should not allow the philanthropist to overlook the economic injustice, which makes philanthropy necessary.” And Dr. King’s view of philanthropy was that you had to take on the very injustice that often yields so much philanthropy.Darren Walker (20:15):Why is it? And how can it be in a society that seeks equality and opportunity to have so much inequality and so little opportunity? And I think today philanthropists are heeding the words of Dr. King. I think more than Carnegie. I think they are questioning some of the systems, whether those systems are our justice system, our economic system, our education system, that these systems actually produce the bad outcomes that then philanthropy has to address. So you see people like Agnes Gund, the ARS and arts philanthropists, who is traditionally been focused on the arts and education, coming to understand how the justice system has a separate track for poor Black and Brown and poor white men and women too, and how that manifest and driving her philanthropy in a different way. And so we’re seeing amongst, particularly, a group of younger philanthropists, a deep concerned about issues of social justice. And I know I had a foundation president say to me recently, “Well, I know you talk about justice at Ford, but my board would never be comfortable with a frame of social justice.” We want to talk about opportunity, and I think that’s fine, but I don’t think you’re going to figure inefficiently advance your mission of solving poverty without taking on justice.Jay Ruderman (21:46):Darren, you’re, and the Ford Foundation is involved in so many different injustices in the United States and around the world recently, you and I, and other foundation heads, cofounded the President’s Council on Disability, Inclusion, and Philanthropy. Can you talk about how your journey to understanding that disability is part of social justice and part of our community that’s generally been overlooked?Darren Walker (22:13):Well, Jay I’m really happy you asked that question. And of course, I wouldn’t know you, but for the fact that you’ve been a mentor and a role model, as I saw it to understand this issue of disability justice and how for a foundation focused on any quality and solving the challenge of inequality, reducing inequality in America, that experiences and status of people with disabilities. It’s fundamental to understand that, if we are to address inequality in America and the world, because people with disabilities are more likely to be in poverty, are more likely to be marginalized from employment opportunities. And as we think about our fundamental mission at the Ford Foundation, which is to ensure that every person lives with dignity, there is nothing more undignified than arriving at the Ford Foundation headquarters, not being able to access the building because you are in a wheelchair, which is what a person in a wheelchair would have experienced if they came to the Ford Foundation seven or eight years ago.Darren Walker (23:26):And so how can we be a foundation with that mission written on the walls of our lobby and have that kind of injustice manifest? So I learned as I started to talk about inequality, when I wasn’t including disability, how inadequate and insufficient I was really taking on the larger issue of inequality, because I wasn’t taking on the issue of disability inclusion and disability justice. And so with your help and the help of many others who have been on the front lines of the fight for disability justice for years, I really had my own awakening and reckoning and education. And that education has yielded, for me, a commitment to prioritize this. And I think when you and I, and the other philanthropy leaders came together to create the new initiative on disability inclusion and philanthropy, the President’s Council serve as a vehicle for leadership of foundations to come together and to compare notes, to talk about best practices, to understand the landscape of policy of the nonprofits working in this space, and to more effectively plan and coordinate our grantmaking, our strategies, how we’ll work around policy change, et cetera.Darren Walker (24:58):And it’s been, I believe, a very impactful effort and there is just huge hunger for it. As you know, Jay, the number of foundations that have signed up since we’ve had that first meeting has been pretty remarkable. We’ve got a long way to go. But when you think about three years ago this thing didn’t exist, and today we’ve got a room full, a big room full, of foundation leaders, and our staff who are all working. We have this amazing a website that has now seven or 800 members who have signed up and who all use it and have it intermediate information. And it’s just really exciting. And I can’t thank you enough because without the Ruderman Family Foundation, we absolutely would not have been able to have that kind of a lift off.Jay Ruderman (25:47):Thank you, Darren. And I want to thank you and others for helping elevate the issue within the world of philanthropy. You recently mentioned in a New York Times opinion piece, that social mobility, the ability for person to climb from poverty to security as you did all but disappeared. What do we need to do to make a meaningful change in regards to income inequalities and social inequalities in general? I know that’s a big question, but how do you see us going forward?Darren Walker (26:14):Absolutely. I believe we’re going to have to reconsider the way in which our economy is organized. The kind of capitalism we are seeing today is producing far too much inequality that people are working full time and still need public benefits. We have to reconsider the allocation of capital and labor. We need to put to bed the ideology of Milton Friedman about the role of the Firm as simply a vehicle to maximize return for shareholders. And think about a stakeholder paradigm that includes shareholders, but employees, communities, customers all have a stake in firm. And we have to have a tax policy that seeks to promote opportunity and to promote the chance to get on the mobility escalator, as I did. And so those are just a few of the things I think we’re going to have to do in order to have that kind of country where opportunity is our signature feature, as I think we once had, but unfortunately we have lost.Jay Ruderman (27:29):Darren, what advice would you have for young people as they start their careers and have an interest in being involved in social justice?Darren Walker (27:36):I think there is no more noble and valiant calling for a young person than to be engaged in social justice. Now that does not mean, necessarily, that you have to work for a social justice organization. I think it’s very important if you have a passion and a desire to commit yourself to a career of working on behalf of low income workers or low income children around education, there are literally thousands of organizations and career tracks that I think are exciting, promising, fulfilling, and gratifying. I also think that one can do social justice from the private sector as well, even as a software engineer at a tech company, one can both do the work of designing products and apps, and also think about how those can be designed to advance justice. The important thing is to be on the journey and to commit oneself from wherever you sit in society to building a more just, fair, and equitable world.Jay Ruderman (28:46):Thank you so much, Darren, for joining us today. It was a pleasure speaking to you. I want to thank you for your leadership. I want to wish you good health and safety is as we move through COVID-19 and I look forward to seeing you in person soon.Darren Walker (29:00):I do too, Jay, you have a great day.Jay Ruderman (29:02):Thank you.Speaker 3 (29:08):All Inclusive is a production of the Ruderman Family Foundation. Our key mission is the full inclusion of people with disabilities in all aspects of society. You can find All Inclusive on Apple Podcast, Google Play, Spotify, and Stitcher. To view the show notes, transcripts, or to learn more, go to rudermanfoundation.org/allinclusive. Have an idea for a podcast? Be sure to tweet @JayRuderman.